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eeyore

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
And, again, read up on the conferences' performances against RPI 26 and downward that I posted -- just an incredible disparity of talent level, and that is further indication of the SEC's deserved respect from the committee over the ACC, BigTen and Big 12 this year.


That's a nice rhetorical sleight of hand there.  I don't think anyone has even vaguely hinted that they don't think that the SEC deserves more respect from the committee than the ACC, Big 10, or Big 12 this year.  That's a strawman.

There is however, a huge gap between what would constitute getting more respect and what actually happened.  What you never seem to recognize is that the committee interprets those listed requirements in ways that heavily tilt the field in favor of SEC teams.  The way that they implement strength of schedule, by just counting wins against top programs, is moronic.  I can't find a better word to describe it.  It is so obviously flawed mathematically that anyone who defends it is either being disingenuous or just doesn't understand numbers.  (The committee, I'm pretty sure, is functionally innumerate.)  I also haven't seen any evidence that the committee actually considers the disparity in home games at all when evaluating teams.

They don't have to implement those listed criteria in such a stupid way.  They choose to do so, and the SEC teams are the beneficiaries of that stupidity.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #32 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore


That's a nice rhetorical sleight of hand there.  I don't think anyone has even vaguely hinted that they don't think that the SEC deserves more respect from the committee than the ACC, Big 10, or Big 12 this year.  That's a strawman.

There is however, a huge gap between what would constitute getting more respect and what actually happened.  What you never seem to recognize is that the committee interprets those listed requirements in ways that heavily tilt the field in favor of SEC teams.

It tilts the field in favor of teams that PLAY top 25 games and win a chunk of those games.

And, the SEC's on-field performance against T25 teams and non T25s other than in their own conference is no straw man, it is the impetus.

BigOrangeSoftball

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Reply with quote  #33 
I think the assumption that Oklahoma would finish better than 5th in the SEC is pretty ridiculous. A 16-8 record would have been 5th.

They may have finished higher but there is no indication including a romp through the Big12, that they necessarily would have.
eeyore

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
It tilts the field in favor of teams that PLAY top 25 games and win a chunk of those games.


It gives a huge advantage to teams that play a lot of Top 25 teams inside their own conference.  If all that matters is the number of wins, it's an advantage that teams outside those conferences can't match.  Counting wins without regard to winning percentage is the act of people who have no idea what numbers mean.


Quote:
And, the SEC's on-field performance against T25 teams and non T25s other than in their own conference is no straw man, it is the impetus.


Then let them be measured by their performance outside the conference instead of giving them an extra hand up.  There is no reason that it should be the impetus to do something stupid.

3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore


It gives a huge advantage to teams that play a lot of Top 25 teams inside their own conference.  If all that matters is the number of wins, it's an advantage that teams outside those conferences can't match.  Counting wins without regard to winning percentage is the act of people who have no idea what numbers mean.




Then let them be measured by their performance outside the conference instead of giving them an extra hand up.  There is no reason that it should be the impetus to do something stupid.

What numbers mean? If Minnesota plays UF, Alabama, Auburn, Arkansas, TAMU, Ole Miss, South Carolina and Mizzou instead of the abject schlock they in fact did in the BigTen, they lose a dozen conference games instead of 1.

You act like going 15-14 against 13 teams who destroy everyone ELSE in  the 31 other conferences -- destroy -- is a bad record.

SEC deserved all 13 making it and 8 hosting.

And, I grind my teeth saying that


MadDogsDad

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Posts: 2,033
Reply with quote  #36 
Out of conference records vs Top 25. Just another metric. Take from it what you will.

1 Florida - 4-1
16- Alabama - 1-5
9 aTm - 4-1
8 Tenn - 1-1
5 UCLA 6-5
12 Mississippi - 0-1
13 LSU - 0-4
4 Florida St - 4-6-1
3 Oregon - 5-0
14 Kentucky - 2-2
11 Utah - 2-1
6 Washington 6-2
7 Auburn - 3-2
10 Oklahoma - 4-4
15 Baylor - 6-1
2 Arizona - 4-1



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Sec_fan91

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Reply with quote  #37 
At the end of the day, I don't feel sorry for Oklahoma nor the draw they got. They have a favorable situation, and I do believe they will return to OKC. I do however agree that the committee needs to be held accountable so that things such as the situation with Minnesota, Florida, and Alabama never happens again.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #38 
The top 4 in the Pac were incredible.
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
The top 4 in the Pac were incredible.


When did Baylor move to the PAC lol

Bottom 3 also share a conference affiliation.

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3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #40 
Yes, they are lucky they didn't Baylor Mr. Incredible two years in a row
RahOKU

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigOrangeSoftball
I think the assumption that Oklahoma would finish better than 5th in the SEC is pretty ridiculous. A 16-8 record would have been 5th. They may have finished higher but there is no indication including a romp through the Big12, that they necessarily would have.


Hey Big Orange, here's your indication: This is essentially the same OU team that romped through the best of the SEC last season on the way to the NC. Yeah, we're talking last season vs. this season, but I don't think the Sooners or this year's SEC cohort is materially different in terms of skill/competitiveness.

To say it's ridiculous that the champion of a P5 conference would do better than 5th in the SEC is itself ridiculous.  
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #42 
21-8 for four teams deep in a conference is a spectacular record

SEC's top 4 records, while exceptional, pales at 13-6
Prowler

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Reply with quote  #43 
So Gasso's suggestion for seeding criteria:

1) How good were you last year?

2) If you play good teams and lose .. DOUBLE BONUS!!! Is she really saying it's a travesty that you not only have to play good teams, you have to win against them to get a top-eight seed? Duh.

3) Close losses should count as wins ... but do we count OU's close wins as losses a well? I see a few.

Yeah, they played a few good teams early early ... and lost most of those games. But look who they played in all those preconference tournaments in Norman -- the Evansvilles and Omahas and Northwestern States of the world.

I keep seeing how Louisiana and JMU and others will play home-and-homes with anyone, anywhere, any time ... but why aren't these coaches at those schools and Minnesota and OU calling each other?
Prowler

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDogsDad
Out of conference records vs Top 25. Just another metric. Take from it what you will.

1 Florida - 4-1
16- Alabama - 1-5
9 aTm - 4-1
8 Tenn - 1-1
5 UCLA 6-5
12 Mississippi - 0-1
13 LSU - 0-4
4 Florida St - 4-6-1
3 Oregon - 5-0
14 Kentucky - 2-2
11 Utah - 2-1
6 Washington 6-2
7 Auburn - 3-2
10 Oklahoma - 4-4
15 Baylor - 6-1
2 Arizona - 4-1




How about just records vs. Top 25 period? Are those in-conference games just exhibitions?

Per Graham Hays, Ole Miss has more top-25 wins than all but eight teams in the country. But those don't count?
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #45 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDogsDad
When did Baylor move to the PAC lol Bottom 3 also share a conference affiliation.
I don't discount intraconference T25 games. Leave that to others.

That said, I did calculate the conferences' performances top to bottom against 26-295 (mostly out of conference for SEC teams). The SEC's performance when accounting for all 13 of their teams still dominated the win percentages of the top 4 teams in all the other conferences.

And, if you wanted to add in the OOC T25s, even with Bama's and LSU's troubles, those numbers would still be through the roof.

Last year, each of the 11 SEC teams won at least two games at the tournament. The gauntlet properly prepares their teams, and the committee will keep trusting that until it isn't evident anymore.

Great discussion...love seeing such a passionate back-and-forth for this sport.

I do believe Minnesota should have hosted, but only because the committee idiots had them as No. 7 on May 6.

Inexcusable.


3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #46 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler
3) Close losses should count as wins

Oregon LOVES this one!

Their six losses

RPI2. Arizona, 10-7

2. Arizona, 2-0

4. Washington, 4-2

5. @UCLA 2-0

4. Washington, 5-3 (9 innings)

5. @UCLA 1-0 (9)

 

Mom

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Reply with quote  #47 
Hey Patty! Do not get too far ahead of yourself talking a Super with Auburn. You have got to get through Tulsa first and the Hurricane is coming to get you!
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #48 
Yes, Mom!!!!!
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler


How about just records vs. Top 25 period? Are those in-conference games just exhibitions?

Per Graham Hays, Ole Miss has more top-25 wins than all but eight teams in the country. But those don't count?


I didn't imply they don't count or that they were exhibitions.

I will say that if team A gets three cracks at Team B, their chances of getting 1 win is greater than when a team C only gets 1 or 2 cracks.

LSU is the prime example. 0-4 against top 25 from other leagues then went 1-2 or 0-3 against the top 25 teams in SEC during the regular season. Got hot in the SECt and boom hosting. 2 of their 6 Top 25 wins came in SECt.


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SoonerFan

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Reply with quote  #50 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
Hey Patty! Do not get too far ahead of yourself talking a Super with Auburn. You have got to get through Tulsa first and the Hurricane is coming to get you!


I guess you missed this line in the original post:

"I am not even looking past this weekend because our regional is tough in itself. Tulsa, Arkansas and North Dakota State is a very tough regional, " - Patty Gasso

Tigers334

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Posts: 252
Reply with quote  #51 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RahOKU


Hey Big Orange, here's your indication: This is essentially the same OU team that romped through the best of the SEC last season on the way to the NC. Yeah, we're talking last season vs. this season, but I don't think the Sooners or this year's SEC cohort is materially different in terms of skill/competitiveness.

To say it's ridiculous that the champion of a P5 conference would do better than 5th in the SEC is itself ridiculous.  


Well they did lose to UT and AU on a neutral field so I can see why they are behind them, but as for saying they are going to come to AU with a certain focus is a bit of a set up. If they beat Auburn, it won't be because they have a focus on showing up the SEC, it will be because Auburn doesn't have a single consistent hitter on the team right now and Paige P is the best in the country (maybe 2nd to Barnhill).
Prowler

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Reply with quote  #52 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDogsDad


I didn't imply they don't count or that they were exhibitions.

I will say that if team A gets three cracks at Team B, their chances of getting 1 win is greater than when a team C only gets 1 or 2 cracks.

LSU is the prime example. 0-4 against top 25 from other leagues then went 1-2 or 0-3 against the teams in SEC during the regular season. Got hot in the SECt and boom hosting.



Don't have the final Top 25 RPI in front of me, but they won three against Georgia (they were No. 25 in the final RPI at the end of the regular season, may have dropped), one against Tennessee, one against Auburn, one against Alabama ... and several others against top 32 RPIs in the SEC.

But my point is that if you play in a conference where you're only going to get a couple of chances at top 25 teams (Minnesota, OU to a lesser extent) or ZERO such chances (JMU, Louisiana) ... then you have to be honest with yourself and say, "My top goal in scheduling out of conference is to create as many more such chances as possible." You can't run and hide.

Now you can try to do this and have bad luck (Missouri is often top 25, but wasn't this year), but you KNOW that certain programs (even if you schedule a couple of years ahead) are likely to be there -- several in the SEC and Pac, Florida State, Michigan, etc.). Why Louisiana and JMU and Minnesota and Oklahoma aren't playing each other is known only to themsevles. Why three of those are playing the Cupcake Invitational at home tournaments three or four times (and why Minnesota is skipping some better opportunities when the ground is frozen hard and they can't play at home) is beyond me.

Why didn't Minnesota and Michigan do a home-and-home out of conference? I know Alabama has played Florida and Auburn and I think others in "non-conference" matchups when they aren't scheduled against each other.

The coaches have to do what they can to give their teams the opportunity. If you're going to have an incredibly easy conference sked, by all means beef up the non-conference to even it out.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler
Don't have the final Top 25 RPI in front of me, but they won three against Georgia (they were No. 25 in the final RPI at the end of the regular season, may have dropped), one against Tennessee, one against Aubur, one against Alabama ... and several others against top 32 RPIs in the SEC. But my point is that if you play in a conference where you're only going to get a couple of chances at top 25 teams (Minnesota, OU to a lesser extent) or ZERO such chances (JMU, Louisiana) ... then you have to be honest with yourself and say, "My top goal in scheduling out of conference is to create as many more such chances as possible." You can't run and hide. Now you can try to do this and have bad luck (Missouri is often top 25, but wasn't this year), but you KNOW that certain programs (even if you schedule a couple of years ahead) are likely to be there -- several in the SEC and Pac, Florida State, Michigan, etc.). Why Louisiana and JMU and Minnesota and Oklahoma aren't playing each other is known only to themsevles. Why three of those are playing the Cupcake Invitational at home tournaments three or four times (and why Minnesota is skipping some better opportunities when the ground is frozen hard and they can't play at home) is beyond me. Why didn't Minnesota and Michigan do a home-and-home out of conference? I know Alabama has played Florida and Auburn and I think others in "non-conference" matchups when they aren't scheduled against each other. The coaches have to do what they can to give their teams the opportunity. If you're going to have an incredibly easy conference sked, by all means beef up the non-conference to even it out.
exactly
CajunAmos

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Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler
Don't have the final Top 25 RPI in front of me, but they won three against Georgia (they were No. 25 in the final RPI at the end of the regular season, may have dropped), one against Tennessee, one against Auburn, one against Alabama ... and several others against top 32 RPIs in the SEC. But my point is that if you play in a conference where you're only going to get a couple of chances at top 25 teams (Minnesota, OU to a lesser extent) or ZERO such chances (JMU, Louisiana) ... then you have to be honest with yourself and say, "My top goal in scheduling out of conference is to create as many more such chances as possible." You can't run and hide. Now you can try to do this and have bad luck (Missouri is often top 25, but wasn't this year), but you KNOW that certain programs (even if you schedule a couple of years ahead) are likely to be there -- several in the SEC and Pac, Florida State, Michigan, etc.). Why Louisiana and JMU and Minnesota and Oklahoma aren't playing each other is known only to themsevles. Why three of those are playing the Cupcake Invitational at home tournaments three or four times (and why Minnesota is skipping some better opportunities when the ground is frozen hard and they can't play at home) is beyond me. Why didn't Minnesota and Michigan do a home-and-home out of conference? I know Alabama has played Florida and Auburn and I think others in "non-conference" matchups when they aren't scheduled against each other. The coaches have to do what they can to give their teams the opportunity. If you're going to have an incredibly easy conference sked, by all means beef up the non-conference to even it out.


Again, unless you're the mid-major scheduling those games you have no idea what you're talking about.

You act like you make a call and it happens. Say you're in the SEC, and one of those teams wants to play you. Do you play them when I know it can hurt my seeding for the post season? You say then play them in some neutral tournaments. I say you don't get to set your schedule in those tournaments, the tournament does (with input from coaches as to who they will/won't play) and you get one good game and four poor RPI games.

Again, it's easy when you're in the SEC or PAC to say how to do things, but you have no idea what you're talking about.
Prowler

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Reply with quote  #55 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos


Again, unless you're the mid-major scheduling those games you have no idea what you're talking about.

You act like you make a call and it happens. Say you're in the SEC, and one of those teams wants to play you. Do you play them when I know it can hurt my seeding for the post season? You say then play them in some neutral tournaments. I say you don't get to set your schedule in those tournaments, the tournament does (with input from coaches as to who they will/won't play) and you get one good game and four poor RPI games.

Again, it's easy when you're in the SEC or PAC to say how to do things, but you have no idea what you're talking about.


It can be done. Louisiana has scheduled more aggressively in the past than this year. And what about playing JMU next year? Three in Louisiana and three at JMU? Or call Minnesota and Oklahoma as soon as the tounament is over and say "Let's help ourselves out by playing each other."

I look at SEC and Pac schedules and see TONS of mid-majors on their non-conference. I don't see the reluctance.
SkiUMahGopher

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Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler
 Why didn't Minnesota and Michigan do a home-and-home out of conference?


When can they play? The Big Ten schedule goes each weekend from the 4th weekend in March through the first weekend in May. Midweek games are bus trips (Michigan-MSU, MN-WI, etc.)

The one option would be a 1 or 2 meetings in a neutral field tournament.
SoonerFan

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Reply with quote  #57 
I get that some of you hate Gasso and Oklahoma. Heck, I hate Nick Saban and Bama cause they win all the time. Unless you're a Bama fan, you probably do too. [smile]

OU started conference play in March at #11 in RPI. Following the losses to Cal Poly on March 17th and 18th, they went 28-1 the rest of the way and their RPI is #12 today.  (A win over Arkansas on 4/5)

I read it as she is questioning what the committee considers in their deliberations. She is perplexed. We should all be questioning the process. Even if you benefit from being in the SEC or Pac12. 
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #58 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos


Again, unless you're the mid-major scheduling those games you have no idea what you're talking about.

You act like you make a call and it happens. Say you're in the SEC, and one of those teams wants to play you. Do you play them when I know it can hurt my seeding for the post season? You say then play them in some neutral tournaments. I say you don't get to set your schedule in those tournaments, the tournament does (with input from coaches as to who they will/won't play) and you get one good game and four poor RPI games.

Again, it's easy when you're in the SEC or PAC to say how to do things, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

You really trying to sell that?

Every year at Garman, ULL would play a couple highly ranked teams before they went home in 2012 after going 2-14 in the nine years from 2004 (a game against Ariz was canceled in 2012). That was in essence two games per year.

They have not played in Palm Springs, at least not since 2004, which is as far back as their online schedules go

It appears that the results were more problematic than the competition

3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiUMahGopher


When can they play? The Big Ten schedule goes each weekend from the 4th weekend in March through the first weekend in May. Midweek games are bus trips (Michigan-MSU, MN-WI, etc.)

The one option would be a 1 or 2 meetings in a neutral field tournament.
With the brutality of the conference, if I were Hutch, Allister, Perry... I would demand one fewer conference weekend to open up an off week in good weather
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #60 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler


Don't have the final Top 25 RPI in front of me, but they won three against Georgia (they were No. 25 in the final RPI at the end of the regular season, may have dropped), one against Tennessee, one against Auburn, one against Alabama ... and several others against top 32 RPIs in the SEC.

But my point is that if you play in a conference where you're only going to get a couple of chances at top 25 teams (Minnesota, OU to a lesser extent) or ZERO such chances (JMU, Louisiana) ... then you have to be honest with yourself and say, "My top goal in scheduling out of conference is to create as many more such chances as possible." You can't run and hide.

Now you can try to do this and have bad luck (Missouri is often top 25, but wasn't this year), but you KNOW that certain programs (even if you schedule a couple of years ahead) are likely to be there -- several in the SEC and Pac, Florida State, Michigan, etc.). Why Louisiana and JMU and Minnesota and Oklahoma aren't playing each other is known only to themsevles. Why three of those are playing the Cupcake Invitational at home tournaments three or four times (and why Minnesota is skipping some better opportunities when the ground is frozen hard and they can't play at home) is beyond me.

Why didn't Minnesota and Michigan do a home-and-home out of conference? I know Alabama has played Florida and Auburn and I think others in "non-conference" matchups when they aren't scheduled against each other.

The coaches have to do what they can to give their teams the opportunity. If you're going to have an incredibly easy conference sked, by all means beef up the non-conference to even it out.


So ONLY SEC games count?

SEC has 8 teams hosting. Top 4 are 12-5 using this metric. Bottom 4 are 3-12. That says something.

The PAC has have teams hosting and are 23-9 against OOC top 25.


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