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Fresh

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Reply with quote  #61 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest
I could be wrong (I have been before) but I thought I read that there was an emphasis on pitchers keep both feet in contact with the ground during a pitch this year.

Please someone help if I read that wrong.


It is patently impossible to keep both feet in contact with the ground for the entire pitch. What has transpired is lessening the penalty to a ball or result of the pitch. This is huge as umpires will be encouraged to call the IP's more by the book. If there is,in fact, an emphasis on more closely calling IP's by the book, Barnhill will be just fine. The biggest problem will be leaping and will affect more than a few pitchers. 
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #62 
I misread that.

ONE of the rules that gets broken by some is that both feet must be in contact with the RUBBER at the START of the pitch
lovsofbal

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Reply with quote  #63 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
I misread that.

ONE of the rules that gets broken by some is that both feet must be in contact with the RUBBER at the START of the pitch


Especially when they rock their feet on the mound. the toe disengages from the mound
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #64 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
I misread that.

ONE of the rules that gets broken by some is that both feet must be in contact with the RUBBER at the START of the pitch


Separating the feet widens the base and allows the pitcher to get more momentum. The more separation, the more drive. Pitching coaches started having pitchers hold the heel of the pivot foot over the pitchers plate, modified the rule(mostly for Abbott) so the foot didn't have to contact the plate, just hover. The gym step, developed from pitching lessons on concrete, is when the pivot foot slides forward to a new release point. This is pretty easy to see. The stride foot is a little harder to call and they will never call the toe losing contact from the rock back. Not sure why but no use in arguing. Similar to accusing Barnhill of a replant, they aren't going to call it......so far. If there's a new point of emphasis about it this year, she'll have some work to do. 
AtlUmpSteve

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Reply with quote  #65 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh


Separating the feet widens the base and allows the pitcher to get more momentum. The more separation, the more drive. Pitching coaches started having pitchers hold the heel of the pivot foot over the pitchers plate, modified the rule(mostly for Abbott) so the foot didn't have to contact the plate, just hover. The gym step, developed from pitching lessons on concrete, is when the pivot foot slides forward to a new release point. This is pretty easy to see. The stride foot is a little harder to call and they will never call the toe losing contact from the rock back. Not sure why but no use in arguing. Similar to accusing Barnhill of a replant, they aren't going to call it......so far. If there's a new point of emphasis about it this year, she'll have some work to do. 


Those "violations" are really more red herrings, and fodder for base coaches to try to get in the head of the pitchers and base umpires, not illegal pitches in most cases.

What you describe (stride foot heel up but not in contact, or sliding forward (not beyond the front plane of the pitcher's plate), or rear toe losing contact) are situations specifically stated as allowed in the rules; not an understanding, judgment, or interpretation by umpire staff.  That's why they would never be called.  Here are the applicable NCAA rules:

10.4.3 A portion of the stride foot must remain in contact with the pitcher’s plate at all times before beginning the forward step.
Note: If the pitcher has toed the pitcher’s plate and, without stepping or sliding backward, simply drops her heel that forces her to lose contact with the pitcher’s plate, there is no violation.

10.4.4 It is legal to slide the pivot foot forward or across the pitcher’s plate provided contact with the pitcher’s plate is maintained.
Exception:
Physical contact with the pitcher’s plate may be lost if all of the following apply:
10.4.4.1 The pivot foot is in contact with the pitcher’s plate when the pitcher turns, twists or bends her pivot foot;
10.4.4.2 If the pivot foot has not reduced the distance to home plate; and
10.4.4.3 The pivot foot must remain in contact with the ground; however, rocking onto either the toe or heel is allowed.

Those categories you mention would only be illegal if a) the rear (stride) foot NEVER toed up and started from behind and not in contact to begin with, or b) while "dropping" the heel (aka toe-roll) she also pulls the entire foot back simultaneously, or c) while sliding across and forward, the slide (aka gym step) pulls the entire foot so far forward that there is daylight/space from the heel being clearly beyond (and not argumentatively still within or touching the plane of) the front edge of the pitcher's plate.  "Reduced the distance" is described as her reducing the distance more than if she set her foot at the very limit forward to begin with with
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #66 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve


Those "violations" are really more red herrings, and fodder for base coaches to try to get in the head of the pitchers and base umpires, not illegal pitches in most cases.

What you describe (stride foot heel up but not in contact, or sliding forward (not beyond the front plane of the pitcher's plate), or rear toe losing contact) are situations specifically stated as allowed in the rules; not an understanding, judgment, or interpretation by umpire staff.  That's why they would never be called.  Here are the applicable NCAA rules:

10.4.3 A portion of the stride foot must remain in contact with the pitcher’s plate at all times before beginning the forward step.
Note: If the pitcher has toed the pitcher’s plate and, without stepping or sliding backward, simply drops her heel that forces her to lose contact with the pitcher’s plate, there is no violation.

10.4.4 It is legal to slide the pivot foot forward or across the pitcher’s plate provided contact with the pitcher’s plate is maintained.
Exception:
Physical contact with the pitcher’s plate may be lost if all of the following apply:
10.4.4.1 The pivot foot is in contact with the pitcher’s plate when the pitcher turns, twists or bends her pivot foot;
10.4.4.2 If the pivot foot has not reduced the distance to home plate; and
10.4.4.3 The pivot foot must remain in contact with the ground; however, rocking onto either the toe or heel is allowed.

Those categories you mention would only be illegal if a) the rear (stride) foot NEVER toed up and started from behind and not in contact to begin with, or b) while "dropping" the heel (aka toe-roll) she also pulls the entire foot back simultaneously, or c) while sliding across and forward, the slide (aka gym step) pulls the entire foot so far forward that there is daylight/space from the heel being clearly beyond (and not argumentatively still within or touching the plane of) the front edge of the pitcher's plate.  "Reduced the distance" is described as her reducing the distance more than if she set her foot at the very limit forward to begin with with


Tell me about Barnhill next year. Are they going to clamp down on replant?
AtlUmpSteve

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Reply with quote  #67 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh


Tell me about Barnhill next year. Are they going to clamp down on replant?


I honestly don't know; the NCAA umpire clinics are in January.  I read and hear the same speculation on here, but until it's said, and I/we see the SEC umpires actually call it, it's just speculation.  Here's what I do know:

1) She was able to pitch very effectively without any replant previously; you and I know that.
2) If she's gaining an advantage and no one is calling it, why stop until they do?
3) The last time the NCAA decided to really crack down, there was even more outcry about the IP calls than there are for the status quo.  And the National Coordinator lost her job.  So does the NCAA really want that outcry calling BS on itself?
4) There is a new National Coordinator this year; but no one believes it was because the prior Coordinator let it get where it is.
5) The real culprit, if there is one, is the former SEC Coordinator, and she has also been replaced.  I have also NOT heard directly that the new SEC Coordinator is determined to crack down; again, just the speculation on this board that no one can actually verify as fact.  I don't remember her as a hard-liner, more of wanting to get along in the P5.
6) Regardless the "absolutes" stated on this board, at live speed, it is not that obvious.  And it shouldn't be guessed, or based on "everyone knows", it has to be clear, and not require an umpire to lay on his belly to see 1/4" of space that might not even be there, or speculate on a new impetus that might actually happen after the ball is already released, and cannot use stop frame action in super slo-mo to make that judgment.
7) I honestly believe that the ESPN announcers share a good bit of blame.  When IP's were called, even blatent ones, they always took the perspective the umpire made it up or shouldn't have called it.  Former pitcher Michelle Smith is absolutely the worst at clarifying the actual rules, and not even better at pitching rules.  The perspective is there to "let them play" on the "BIGGEST STAGE!!"

To be clear, here is the "replant" rule:

10.4.6 Crow hopping is not allowed. The pitcher may not replant, gain a second starting point and push off her pivot foot. Once having lost contact with the pitcher’s plate, the pivot foot may trail on the ground but may not bear weight again until the pitch is released.

OK, stop frame and slo-mo may prove it to be true; but in live time, making that call is guessing if the the bearing of weight is before, after, or simultaneous to the release, the vast majority of the time.  And it isn't illegal unless ALL of that "replant, gain, and push" is true before the release.  Occasionally it is more obvious, but it will require the NCAA and SEC staff to be willing to call BS on the prior years' games to call it illegal now without any rule change or her pitching more illegally than before.

Again, you and I know, better than most, she can pitch effectively with the necessary adjustment; she was NOT even marginally replanting her last year in high school and that last summer of travel ball.  Primarily PAC12 umpires called most all her PGF Premier Nationals games that year, with no IP calls that I remember.

Now, that said; I have stopped responding generally because I just won't get into the incessant back and forth name-calling that these threads devolve into.  For the small number that actually look for answers or a differing point of view to consider, I am happy to assist.  A few have PM'd me with questions over time, realizing my rationale for not posting repetitively.  So don't be surprised if I stay silent for another several months.
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #68 
Thanks Steve. I was roundly called out when I said she was mostly legal, leaping was her biggest problem. 

To be clear, here is the "replant" rule:

10.4.6 Crow hopping is not allowed. The pitcher may not replant, gain a second starting point and push off her pivot foot. Once having lost contact with the pitcher’s plate, the pivot foot may trail on the ground but may not bear weight again until the pitch is released.

I still maintain she is moving forward most of the time as her foot contacts the ground. Contacting the ground after a leap(definitely illegal, harder to see from the field than is apparent on tv) is not necessarily bearing weight and pushing off again. She is NOT grossly illegal. Another point is any rule is only as good as the ability to accurately call it consistently. Strike zones, defensive obstruction and illegal pitches vary in how they're called and which conference you're in. Umpire meetings prior to the start of the season address problems encountered the year before and points of emphasis are created to deal with them. I wish they'd resort to the men's rules on pitching and move the plate back a bit to compensate. Would eliminate a lot of consternation.

outofzone

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Reply with quote  #69 
I believe I have PM ALTUMPSTEVE & FRESH on a few occasions & both have responded in kind with sincere thoughts & good advice. Altumpsteve always posts with a reasoned demeanor backed up with facts. Fresh posts are rational & non combative. That I thank you for.

AltumpSteve: To your numbered points above you see both sides of the argument which is great.

#2 Agreed, why stop if its not called.

#5 I sat next to a long time D1 Observer/Umpire at a Fall Game. They told me the new Coordinator would be taking a hard line on the illegal pitching & scheduling in the SEC. Also said this would be a major point of emphasis at the January meetings BECAUSE of Barnhill/Carlson. Their words not mine. I'll believe any of it when I see it put into practice and maybe this person just has a burr up their ass for certain coaches/players...time will tell.

#6 you say at live speed Barnhill is not obvious. Respectfully, you must be watching a different pitcher because she flies thru the air like Peter Pan. Walton probably has an Air Traffic Control person in the Pressbox. 

#7 You couldn't be more right about ESPN/Michelle Smith. That love affair is embarrassing.

While your stop frame/slo mo analogy is correct, Barnhill covers the trifecta of illegal mechanics. Leap, replant, 2nd push off. Umpires wouldn't have to change anything except just start calling the violation. Pretty simple actually. The ONLY outcry you will hear will come from the Florida bench & fans. I personally am disgusted at the appeasement towards basically ONE player/coach/school.  Nobody can dispute this single illegality affords Florida an advantage NO OTHER school in the country enjoys. That's a problem.
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #70 
<< 6) Regardless the "absolutes" stated on this board, at live speed, it is not that obvious.  And it shouldn't be guessed, or based on "everyone knows", it has to be clear, and not require an umpire to lay on his belly to see 1/4" of space that might not even be there, or speculate on a new impetus that might actually happen after the ball is already released, and cannot use stop frame action in super slo-mo to make that judgment. >> (AtlUmpSteve)

First, I want to thank Steve for his posts. It is good to hear from someone with your perspective.

In regard to your #6 (listed above), I have to disagree when you say "it is not that obvious". I cannot remember a single pitch from KB during the post season tournament when she was not air borne (leaping from the pitching plate). I believe that any umpire with average vision should be able to clearly see the air space between Kelly's feet and the ground after she leaves the pitching plate - on every pitch. This seems very easy to see - and to call. THEY JUST CHOSE TO NOT CALL IT.

The replant portion of her being illegal is a tougher call to make in real time (than her leaping through the air)... but I still think a lot of umps would also see that (a replant bearing weight before the pitch is released) as being illegal - if they had permission to call it. 

I truly believe the umps involved did not have permission to call either violation on KB last year. 
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #71 
<< I believe I have PM ALTUMPSTEVE & FRESH on a few occasions & both have responded in kind with sincere thoughts & good advice. Altumpsteve always posts with a reasoned demeanor backed up with facts. Fresh posts are rational & non combative. That I thank you for.

AltumpSteve: To your numbered points above you see both sides of the argument which is great.

#2 Agreed, why stop if its not called.

#5 I sat next to a long time D1 Observer/Umpire at a Fall Game. They told me the new Coordinator would be taking a hard line on the illegal pitching & scheduling in the SEC. Also said this would be a major point of emphasis at the January meetings BECAUSE of Barnhill/Carlson. Their words not mine. I'll believe any of it when I see it put into practice and maybe this person just has a burr up their ass for certain coaches/players...time will tell.

#6 you say at live speed Barnhill is not obvious. Respectfully, you must be watching a different pitcher because she flies thru the air like Peter Pan. Walton probably has an Air Traffic Control person in the Pressbox. 

#7 You couldn't be more right about ESPN/Michelle Smith. That love affair is embarrassing.

While your stop frame/slo mo analogy is correct, Barnhill covers the trifecta of illegal mechanics. Leap, replant, 2nd push off. Umpires wouldn't have to change anything except just start calling the violation. Pretty simple actually. The ONLY outcry you will hear will come from the Florida bench & fans. I personally am disgusted at the appeasement towards basically ONE player/coach/school.  Nobody can dispute this single illegality affords Florida an advantage NO OTHER school in the country enjoys. That's a problem. >> (outofzone)

===============================

I re-posted outofzone's entire post above... 
because I agree with all of it. I put the parts I especially loved in BOLD
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #72 
I think more people would engage with you if you used the traditional way to copy a members post.  I know they are hard to follow for me and I usually end up skipping your post.  The ones I read seem extremely well thought out.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #73 
From HLA: I truly believe the umps involved did not have permission to call either violation on KB last year. 


As crazy as that sounds it's the only plausible explanation. NOT CALLING Barnhill must be a point of emphasis in every Umpire's pregame meeting. And this would have to of come from the Coordinator. 

I guess drawing the 3rd Base assignment in a Florida game is like losing a bet.

Great post.


Gators2014

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Reply with quote  #74 
CAN THE SEASON START ALREADY
Gators2014

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Reply with quote  #75 
Current Florida roster in the school record books (school record in parenthesis next to current student athlete's mark).

Kayli Kvistad:

2. On Base % - .497 (.526)
6. Fielding % - .995 (1.000)
7. Walks - 128 (175)
9. Batting Average - .336 (.395)
9. Slugging % - .577 (.736)
9. RBI - 149 (260)

Nicole DeWitt:

2. HBP - 52 (72)
3. On Base % - .471 (.526)
10. Runs Scored - 139 (259)
10. Sac Fly - 8 (21)

Aleshia Ocasio:

2. Fewest Walks/7 IP - 1.11 (0.81)
3. Combined Shutouts - 13 (23)
4. Strikeouts/7 IP - 7.11 (12.19)
4. Saves - 8 (18)
5. SB % Against - .529 (.333)
6. ERA - 1.39 (0.81)
6. BAA - .194 (.128)
7. Games finished - 31 (73)
9. Triples Hit - 5 (29)
10. Wins - 48 (136)
10. Groundouts - 407 (1459)

Kelly Barnhill:

1. Lowest ERA - 0.81
1. BAA - .128
1. Strikeouts/7 IP - 12.19
1. SB % Against - .333
1. Triple Plays Turned - 1
6. Combined Shutouts - 16 (23)
6. Strikeouts Looking - 144 (249)
8. Strikeouts - 526 (1116)
9. Shutouts - 19 (60)

Amanda Lorenz:

1. Batting Average - .395
1. On Base % - .526
1. Fielding % - 1.000
5. Slugging % - .637 (.736)

Janell Wheaton:

2. Fielding % - .999 (1.000)
10. SB % Against - .600 (Munro highest catcher on the list at #5 w/ .521)
10. Putouts - 855 (1638)

Jordan Roberts:
1. Fielding % - 1.000 (2 way tie with Lorenz)
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