Ultimate College Softball
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Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #61 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH2


Aside from trying to teach a proper motion, coaches have no incentive to change what is otherwise a successful pitcher's motion because of something that rarely gets called.  All you hear starting in 10U and up from umpires is the cop out, "I'm not calling it on their pitcher because everyone's illegal and I'd have to call it on yours."


Interesting suggestion. Call it when only one side is doing it, but not when both are.

Called or not, it is still illegal.
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #62 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


Interesting suggestion. Call it when only one side is doing it, but not when both are.

Called or not, it is still illegal.


That's right and when it is rightfully called on your team's pitcher, understand that official is doing his/her job and look forward to the next game where the umpires won't.
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #63 
Main problem with calling illegal pitches is the penalty. Too harsh for the infraction. If the pitcher has gained an edge by skirting the rules, allow the hitter to choose between the result of the pitch or a ball. Don't throw in the added penalty of moving all the runners another 60 feet. Makes no sense in softball, as the runners can't leave until the ball is released anyway, so they are not impacted. Baseball hangover. 
I still don't think Barnhill lands and gains another, closer to home, spot to throw from. It is a result of her leap........also illegal and should result in a ball, not advancement of the runners.
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #64 
Fresh - Your point about advancing runners has been discussed among the rank and file umpires for years. It may cause some officials to not call IPs, but I believe the biggest reason for some not calling them is their fear of being confronted by the HC. IMO, if they can't explain their call, they shouldn't be working.

OTOH, if you want to stop IPs in college softball, make the 5th IP in a game an automatic ejection of the HC. I can guarantee they would fix their pitchers.
gatorbob

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Reply with quote  #65 
Why no,no more than reason!
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #66 
Maybe a progressive penalty (not to be called unless a strike or foul):

1. Warning

2. Strike to ball.

3. Strike to ball and advance runner(s) one base.

4. Walk.

5. Expulsion.

jayrot

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Reply with quote  #67 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa
Maybe a progressive penalty (not to be called unless a strike or foul):

1. Warning

2. Strike to ball.

3. Strike to ball and advance runner(s) one base.

4. Walk.

5. Expulsion.



That's a little extreme when the call cannot be reviewed.

I think simply making it a ball call with no runner advancing will help umpires feel like they can call it more freely and still have enough effect to cause teams to have to address it.
Gators2014

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Reply with quote  #68 
I just find it difficult to believe the best pitching coach in the game would let any of her pitchers be illegal after the 2010 debacle in OKC. Coaches are likely aware of what the rules committee will be focusing on in any given year.

I have an ignorant question though - does the international game follow this specific replant rule?
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #69 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gators2014
I just find it difficult to believe the best pitching coach in the game would let any of her pitchers be illegal after the 2010 debacle in OKC. Coaches are likely aware of what the rules committee will be focusing on in any given year.

I have an ignorant question though - does the international game follow this specific replant rule?


So based on that statement, we've now seen that it is a replant ... as no one has denied that.  So how do you think Rocha is addressing it?  It appears as if it's just the "I'm gonna let it go until someone calls it."
PH2

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Reply with quote  #70 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


Interesting suggestion. Call it when only one side is doing it, but not when both are.

Called or not, it is still illegal.


I agree.  I'm not suggesting that's how this should be enforced (or not), I'm saying that's the excuse I have heard many umpires make when they refuse to call it.
lovsofbal

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Reply with quote  #71 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot


So based on that statement, we've now seen that it is a replant ... as no one has denied that.  So how do you think Rocha is addressing it?  It appears as if it's just the "I'm gonna let it go until someone calls it."


I'm guessing it won't be called. Let's just make rules and not enforce it. kinda like leaving the base early. I'm sure you could look at videos all day and catch runners leaving early.
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #72 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovsofbal


I'm guessing it won't be called. Let's just make rules and not enforce it. kinda like leaving the base early. I'm sure you could look at videos all day and catch runners leaving early.


Or out of the box on a slapper (even the team I cheer for has had a few of these).
Bama_CF

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Reply with quote  #73 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aojr03


Cause the Bama hate for Auburn surpasses that of even Florida.   My point is that why isn't there an "does she replant and pushoff" thread for Stewart.  KB is illegal sometimes and sometimes she's not.  Whether is HBP by UF, or the "enthusiasm by Moss post pitch, etc...    Just alot of whining about something NONE of us can do anything about.  It's just whiny babble that if she was on YOUR team, you'd have no problem with.  You can say you would, but I won't buy it.   Yes I have a dog in this fight, but even so, it's annoying to always hear the same thing over and over when it's not going to change. 



Oh, so in your delusional world it is only Bama posters who have the opinion about Barnhill and Carlson and their illegal pitches?  Hmm  What's annoying is when people think their players should be allowed to cheat just because they are their players.

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Still_JAD

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Reply with quote  #74 
Just watched the ULL vs. aTm replay on WatchESPN and the ULL pitcher was called for @ 3 IPs towards the end.  Looked like they were calling her for leaping, but she did not appear to replant as flagrantly as others I have seen.
CajunAmos

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Reply with quote  #75 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_JAD
Just watched the ULL vs. aTm replay on WatchESPN and the ULL pitcher was called for @ 3 IPs towards the end.  Looked like they were calling her for leaping, but she did not appear to replant as flagrantly as others I have seen.


I think she was called for 8 in total.
fp_mom

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Reply with quote  #76 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vol52
In the first portion of the video it looks to me that she is replanting outside the lane which is a huge benefit for the screw ball... so, illegal on two counts.  And, whether or not the replant  provides an advantage is beside the point, isn't?
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Steve Rhodes


She is close, but not outside the Mowatt lines. and you really can't call it anyway if there are no lines.  The screwball is a useless pitch anyway. 
fp_mom

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gators2014
I just find it difficult to believe the best pitching coach in the game would let any of her pitchers be illegal after the 2010 debacle in OKC. Coaches are likely aware of what the rules committee will be focusing on in any given year.

I have an ignorant question though - does the international game follow this specific replant rule?


College coaches are irrelevant when it comes to redoing skills learned as a youth; they are more like glorified cheerleaders in this regard. You will mess the player up if you force her to change. Ask Tiger Woods.

Habits are hard to break. I've seen pitchers in HS who can't break a habit of replanting. College? Forget about it. The time to have done it would have been 12U or below.
fp_mom

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Reply with quote  #78 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos


I think she was called for 8 in total.


Good. That's what they get for recruiting her. I have no sympathy for illegal pitchers. I learned the correct way.
fp_mom

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Reply with quote  #79 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Main problem with calling illegal pitches is the penalty. Too harsh for the infraction. If the pitcher has gained an edge by skirting the rules, allow the hitter to choose between the result of the pitch or a ball. Don't throw in the added penalty of moving all the runners another 60 feet. Makes no sense in softball, as the runners can't leave until the ball is released anyway, so they are not impacted. Baseball hangover. 
I still don't think Barnhill lands and gains another, closer to home, spot to throw from. It is a result of her leap........also illegal and should result in a ball, not advancement of the runners.


An illegal pitch is the same as a balk. Ask Cheri Kempf.

But runners should advance. The point is to penalize a blatant cheater. Penalty doesn't have to related to the play. If you get a technical in basketball twice in a  game, you are ejected.
fp_mom

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Reply with quote  #80 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos


It's the arbitrary games where it is called that is the problem in my mind. When one out of 8-10 games you get a crew that calls what they feel is the interpretation of the rule appears to be the issue with me. A rule shouldn't be so difficult to call that it's open for a wide range of interpretation. It shouldn't be a point where coaches can lobby umpires before the game as to whether someone is illegal or not (although I guess that would happen anyway).


The fact it wasn't called doesn't mean it was not illegal. Think of it as she has been getting away with cheating.

The simple answer would be for these cheating pitchers to stop doing it and parents not to allow it to begin with.
fp_mom

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Reply with quote  #81 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough


I pitched at 43ft back in 1986-87.


A few state high school fastpitch associations had the 43' rule years before it went national. And some allow metal cleats, like Minnesota.
fp_mom

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Reply with quote  #82 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoo


This is exactly right. If it is illegal, then coaches should holler about it and not stop. People don't have the courage to keep challenging cheaters. Or how about this: Have a 3-person committee with softball expertise--no ties to the SEC or any SEC schools--watch this or other videos of her pitches and make a determination. Let it decide--but it's pretty clear from what I see that she is not only replanting, but replanting and getting leverage from the replant, which equals definite advantage. What kind of season she or anyone has should not relevant--but obviously if you are replanting and super-successful, you will be scrutinize--and rightly so.   


1st time: Warning
2nd time: All runners and hitter advance one base.
3rd time: Pitcher and coach are ejected
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #83 
Based on the time of the post and their content, I will assume fp_mom was celebrating with her pal Johnny Walker and his brothers Black and Red, and will be joining us a little later after the BP headache powder has taken effect.
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your kid sucks.
vol52

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Reply with quote  #84 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fp_mom


She is close, but not outside the Mowatt lines. and you really can't call it anyway if there are no lines.  The screwball is a useless pitch anyway. 


For me, first part of the video she looks outside the lines.  Second part, I agree.  So, if a slapper erases the lines of the batters box they can't be called for stepping out?  Screwball is a useless pitch?  Really?
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Steve Rhodes
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #85 
Screwball is a huge pitch
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #86 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fp_mom


She is close, but not outside the Mowatt lines. and you really can't call it anyway if there are no lines.  The screwball is a useless pitch anyway. 



Bahahahahaha, just ask Megan Lagenfeld or Kelsey Nunley how useless the screwball is.  And I was talking about college pitching at 43ft back in 86-87 not hs.
lovsofbal

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Reply with quote  #87 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough



Bahahahahaha, just ask Megan Lagenfeld or Kelsey Nunley how useless the screwball is.  And I was talking about college pitching at 43ft back in 86-87 not hs.

Megan darn near wore fingers to the bone in that championship seeies
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #88 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovsofbal


I'm guessing it won't be called. Let's just make rules and not enforce it. kinda like leaving the base early. I'm sure you could look at videos all day and catch runners leaving early.


It's not being called, it seems to me, for two reasons:

1) The penalty is too high - umpires don't want to intrude into the game.

2) Umpires in conference games are afraid of retaliation from top conference coaches who've coached their pitchers to be illegal (Clint, Tim, etc.).
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #89 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough



Bahahahahaha, just ask Megan Lagenfeld or Kelsey Nunley how useless the screwball is.  And I was talking about college pitching at 43ft back in 86-87 not hs.


One of the greatest pitcher/batter showdowns I've ever seen is MLs 33-pitch at bat against Stanford. At least 30 of them were screwballs.
eyenoall

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Reply with quote  #90 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


It's not being called, it seems to me, for two reasons:

1) The penalty is too high - umpires don't want to intrude into the game.

2) Umpires in conference games are afraid of retaliation from top conference coaches who've coached their pitchers to be illegal (Clint, Tim, etc.).


Tarr too
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