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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #1 
During this recession, unemployment among the "producers" has gone up dramatically meanwhile the government has not only been hiring, but their wages have gone up as well. Now our national debt has reached 90% of our Gross Domestic Product and our government is still expanding and looking for more ways to spend money while looking for other ways to punish the "producers" through higher taxes, forced health benefits, higher minimum wage, more regulation, etc..., which will drive down the GDP. 
so the question that I have is this: What happens when the debt surpasses the GDP? With the direction that Obama has decided to take this country it is bound to happen. What happens then? Anyone know?

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PatGillickProtege

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We bend over, grab our ankles and kiss our asses goodbye. This f**khead President who is CLUELESS beyond belief is bringing our Country to financial ruin with all his spending and increasing the National Debt. This is what happens when Democrats are in Power. They spend like drunken sailors on Liberty but they are spending OUR money and they don't give 2 $hits about it. How about they spend their own money? Democrats don't do that. They are such cheap bastards that they spend other people's money way before they spend their own. Vote conservative and get Reid, Pelosi & Obama out of office.


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PatGillickProtege

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinger

Hey guys, there was a pretty good ballgame tonight - did you catch it?

Missed it but I heard UCLA had a walk-off in the bottom of the 8th. YES Network was running Game 6 ALCS 2009 Yankees beat Angels and I got caught up in that game.


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tenfour

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Reply with quote  #4 

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oldscout

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Reply with quote  #5 
I keep seeing all these talking heads on TV saying now is not the time to cut back on spending.
I feel that by our continuing to increase the federal debt we are giving up our freedom.
With other countries[China #1]buying a great % of our debt, it is just a matter of time & they will start to dictate to us what we can or cannot do.They will have the power if not to destroy at least severely damage our economy by pulling the plug on our debt.
This continued spending so we can live the good life is at the expense of our children & grand kids. It is truly a sin, as well as a national disgrace to borrow for our well being & expect someone else to pay for our follies.
The only thing & RIGHT thing to do is to reduce the Federal deficit  & begin to pay off the debt.
If it causes our country & each of us economic pain, that's the way it has got to be. It is morally the right & only thing to do & I say it will benefit our country in the long run.
We need a leader[s] willing to face the tough decisions, not worried about the polls & their base or most of all getting re-elected, they should do what is right.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #6 
Looks like 126 weeks of UE benefits.....Do we now consider it welfare?
Come on Congress create some jobs.....They come from small business.
I have a whole lot more I could say about this, but got to go to unload a truck of produce at the food shelter with about 5 other old guys never realized a box of lettuce weighs so much

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #7 
old scout - Our nation is already in an economic position in which other nations (China #1) dictate to us about world economics and international trade as well as international relations. Your post about this is a good one. Outsourcing and corporate moves to foreign countries to increase corporate profit don't help the causes of either employment at home or macro economics interrelationships abroad.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #8 

Mr. Bolton--Perhaps outsourcing and corporate moves to foreign countries aren't an effort to increase corporate profit, but an attempt to maintain a level of profitability that is being taken away through excessive taxation, fees and overly burdensome regulation? Just maybe!!


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
woody

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Reply with quote  #9 
Bingo. 


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POV

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Reply with quote  #10 

Interesting......


ExxonMobil

Sales: $311 billion
Pretax income: $37.3 billion
Income taxes: $17.6 billion
Tax rate: 47%

None of ExxonMobil's income taxes were paid in the U.S. In 2008 the company's income tax bill was $36 billion.

POV

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Reply with quote  #11 
Interesting.......
 
 
Chevron
 
Sales: $172 Billion
Pretax income: $18.5 Billion
Income Taxes:  $8 Billion
Tax rate:  43%
 
Chevron paid $19 billion income tax in 2008.  Of this year's taxes, just $200 million were paid in the US.
PatGillickProtege

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Reply with quote  #12 

What are companies in business for in the first place? To make profits. They're not in business to make you feel good.


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Keep 'em moving Colonel, a man that eloquent has to be saved.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #13 
fanatic - Maybe - but how much profit is enough, and at what cost to others? If any means toward a profit end is acceptable, then we as a nation have lost our moral and ethical compass, as our economic system has already become our government.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #14 
PGP - And I'm not "in business" to pay for their huge profits through my tax dollars.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #15 

Mr. Bolton--your point was that the companies were outsourcing and moving to foreign countries to increase profits. My counter is that just maybe the move was to maintain a consistency in profit that was being infringed upon by excessive taxation, fees on overly burdensome regulation. Are you of the opinion that the government should set a maximum allowable profit per company, what you term "enough profit", and everything over that should go to the government for re-distribution? As a stockholder personally and thru retirement plans I would have a major issue with that!


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #16 
fanatic - I truly understand your perspective and respect it. What I am saying is that we can't have it both ways. I guess a relatively good analogy is this factual story - A man who runs a major automobile plant in one of our southern states wrote to me about a memo he received that stated that he was not allowed to turn on the air conditioning that summer for his plant because the Board was demanding more profit.
They made more profit, and others paid the price. All I'm saying is that there is a moral and ethical level already established in corporate America that determines "how" profit is made. When you cash your investment check, do you ever consider how that profit was achieved? Do you ever consider who is paying the taxes that support that profit? Or is it enough to say to yourself, "Hey, my check was even larger this month than the last"? I am not against profits, just profit at a cost that I deem unacceptable. Just my view.
PS - To me, that profit that is made because of the misery of others in the nation is called "greed" and is unacceptable - just my view. Works both ways when labor unions get "greedy" and decrease profit to entrepreneurs.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #17 

Mr. Bolton--I run a small businees with aproximately 40 employees. I have in my mind what is a fair percentage of profit for my company based on my investment as the lone stockholder. When the government, thru increased taxation, fees, or regulatory compliance costs, cause me to potentially not meet that target, I have to take action. I can increase the costs to my customers, who are all individuals as I am not in a business to business industry. Given the economy of today it is very difficult for me to raise my prices without more negative impact to my company through loss of economies of scale. Therefore I must look to other areas to reduce costs to "maintain" my level of profitability. I can do many things in this area, but I cannot escape the governments will! While your story is interesting, I am sure that while it may be true, it may have resulted in a less comfortable working environment but not an unsafe one. Of course they could have chose to forego raises to the employees, or contributions to the retirement plans, but those too would have been deemed unacceptable. Tough choices.


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #18 
fanatic - I too ran a small corporation and fully understand your dilemma. Frankly, I learned to play the government's game and legally did just fine for my employees. I do miss the percs of corporate ownership. Now, using your experience, here's another example of what I call corporate greed (I assume that our government has become just another corporation).
Using the Sunlight Foundation's figures for Congressional spending on itself from June 2009 to March 2010, the total was $1,013,162,955.00. To get the unbelievable specifics of greed, look at the AOL specific listings or consult the Foundation which is an independent organization that checks on government spending.
Just so you know that I have no political party in mind in this message, rampant spending went across both Party lines. Some people have no shame.
PS - I would never want our government to put a cap on corporate earnings, but I would want them to keep a closer eye on profits and create enforceable taxation situations that would make the burden of taxes less on the middle class and working poor and enforce tax penalties for corporations that outsource or create off shore offices to avoid taxes.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #19 

Mr. Bolton--Your PS was totally contradictory. You said you were against a cap on corporate "earnings". You want the government to "keep a closer eye on profits and create enforceable taxation situations that would make the burden of taxes less on the middle class and working poor and enforce tax penalties for corporations that outsource or create off shore offices to avoid taxes." So they can "earn all of the money they want, you just want to tax away any profits that the government deems unfair and redistribute it to the middle class and working poor? If all of the profits above a governmetn decided level are going to be taxed away and redistributed, I am going to reduce my earnings and thereby reduce my employee base if I am not going to get to keep any of the profits above that government mandated level. The government mandated level would be my cap! Why would I take all of the risk and put in the work to just support others and receive no rwturn on that investment and risk? THat is the job killing mentality that is running Washington now! 


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #20 
fanatic - I do believe that you and I will have to agree to disagree based on a single premise. I do believe that government should have a hand in regulating big business to stave off the inevitable results of laissez faire capitalism ala the era of the Robber Barons, and you do not. From one perspective, what I support is "rampant socialism". I see it as common sense government that takes into consideration all the citizens of a nation, not just those at the top of the socio-economic scale. I have enjoyed this gentlemanly conversation and do respect your perspective.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #21 
Back to UE benefits being extended to 126 weeks. I think we are at the point where UE has just become another welfare program. We are in danger of creating a class of people that are completely dependent on the Gov & in reality being paid by tax dollars from those working/earning.
Please don't call me heartless, I know many people are having a tough time finding a job, but I say 126 weeks of UE give people less incentive to look or maybe get retrained in another profession.
Remember, all this money people are getting in UE checks is borrowed money & some day it is going to have to be repaid to the lenders, mainly China at this time & when that day comes..what then?
I know a lot of businesses are not hiring & a lot of cash is sitting on the sidelines,but its because of the uncertainty that is promulgated by this spend
happy, tax happy, regulating happy Gov.
To me the solution is easy,loosen or remove the noose from around the necks of small businesses & jobs would start growing like the sweet corn in my beloved Iowa.
This will not happen with Obama & his far left loonies in congress,he would rather extend or grow the welfare class than allow business to prosper.
Before the last vote on extending benefits he was as usual out blaming Bush & demonizing the Republicans for not caring about the UE ,but being in bed with the wealthy & the media helps him by promoting his LIES.
You see, the Republicans where willing to extend the UE weeks ago & take the money from the unspent stimulus[suppose to be used to create jobs],but Obama instead wants to borrow it from China.....you don't think he is going to touch that SLUSH FUND do you, he is saving it for spending that leads up to Nov. & to gain votes for some of his socialist programs.
And, I am not defending the Republicans,the likes of Lindsey Graham,John McCain,Boehner,Mitch Connell,etc make me ill. For every Paul Ryan in congress the Republicans have 10 old rhinos that are just as bad as the Dems.....wake up America...UCS & realize that these people could care less for us. I'm on a mission in my area to find the best & brightest & donate to them,promote them & hopefully get a few elected.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
woody

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
fanatic - I do believe that you and I will have to agree to disagree based on a single premise. I do believe that government should have a hand in regulating big business to stave off the inevitable results of laissez faire capitalism ala the era of the Robber Barons, and you do not. From one perspective, what I support is "rampant socialism". I see it as common sense government that takes into consideration all the citizens of a nation, not just those at the top of the socio-economic scale. I have enjoyed this gentlemanly conversation and do respect your perspective.

JG, I think you and Oliver Stone have a lot in common. Viva Chavez.

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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


DaddyO

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Reply with quote  #23 

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of all of its victims may be the most oppressive.  It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.  The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S. Lewis


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Scratch a reactionary leftist, find the fascist writhing underneath.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #24 
woody - That's insulting. I will put my patriotism right up there or even superior to yours. You have every right to disagree with me, but do not ever compare me to a socialist dictator. You have no right to do that except to expose your extreme political views.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #25 
DaddyO - An apt quotation that states a viewpoint that anyone who opposes any smidgeon of socialism might embrace. It is well said. Obviously I disagree with the second sentence.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
swifty

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Reply with quote  #26 
JG

I think Woody hit the nail on the head.  If you go back and re-read your posts, you are not just a socialist, you are a Marxist.  Maybe you should move down to Cuba where you'd probably feel more at home.
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #27 
Here's a quote that kind of outlines the problem, " You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in their struggle for independence."-C.A. Beard-

I really wonder also on this ue extention of benefits why the media[exception FNC] is giving the Dems a pass on the Pay as you go rule they passed & did that with the 96th week extention-what is the difference now & why do they all paint the Republicans as bad because they want to pay for it? Do you really think with millions left in stimulus & a 3.8 trillion dollar budget, that they can't find the money to pay for it?

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
POV

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of all of its victims may be the most oppressive.  It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.  The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S. Lewis


Made me think of the conservative school boards who have rewriten history to suit their belief system.  Or the quest to eliminate a woman's right to choose. Or the Conservative's God given mission to ensure that only some men are created equal....depending on one's sexuality. Or making sure that the uncivilized "savages" of the world find their definition of God.  

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #29 
President Obama loves to point out about 10 x per week, how we need to abandon the failed policies of the past. I agree with him,but his problem is that he doesn't have a clue which economic theories failed & which ones worked.
As I have said in the past,he belongs to the school of Keynesian economics which pushes massive Gov spending to create demand. It is favored by socialist & Marxists countries & Govs worldwide. They burden the private sector with paying Govs debts, which is the money it spends,plus interest & also the high adms. costs incurred.It always leads to negative growth & at best you end up back where you started & that was the case with the great depression & is so with the current recovery.This theory led to the downfall of the Soviet Union & Japan's lost decade
Free markets are the answer & have proved themselves over & over again.That was the principle of our Founding Fathers meant when they said, " The pursuit of Happiness".
In short it says that the individual consumer knows better how to spend their money than any "DANG" politician.
Maybe some of you need for the Gov to spend your money for you-but not me.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #30 
swifty - Unfortunately, you are of the mindset that says that everyone should think, without any deviation whatsoever, exactly as you do. Thus, any deviation from your thought is to be encapsulated with a generalized epithet in your mind. Your thinking is so warped and narrow that you actually believe that I'm a Marxist because I believe that a few tenets of socialist thought would be good to curb the natural effects of laissez faire capitalism. By the way, I also think that the CCC and the WPA were necessary socialist economic reforms (taken from the 1928 Socialist Party platform) in the 1930s during the great Depression. I also favor Social Security and Medicare, especially as our national population lives longer. This does not in any way make me a Marxist.

I am an avid capitalist and believe in the profit motive (that automatically divides me from Marxists as they believe profit to be immoral), even running my own corporation as an entrepreneur, but my belief is that laissez faire capitalism for our nation results in too large a disparity among the socio economic levels of society as was demonstrated in the 19th century, and that our government has a moral obligation to all its citizens.

Unfortunately, our governmental way has become so corrupted and self serving that all aspects of government lack oversight, and the distribution of wealth in both directions lacks oversight, and the method of distributions is equally corrupted, whether it be strict capitalism or capitalism with socialist aspects. Until we rectify the problems in "The Washington Way", no economic system will be "fair" to all citizens.

Just a curiosity - have you ever read "Das Capital" (an economic theory) or do you believe that all Marxist ideas are evil because someone from the Cold War told you so?

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
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