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EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #241 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
I disagree about magic anything.  We need market based solutions.  Wind and Solar are both very close.  We need to get our universities back to enjoying, thriving and delivering on base level physics challenges.  

We need them doing base level research work on storage as well.   

That low level physics will definitely result in startup companies.  They are chomping at the bit.  Batteries that can store 5% more based on weight/cost will 100% result in a new start up and be brought to market. 

Remember any percent increase in load that solar/wind takes on directly extends our known oil reserves.

Also we are only at the beginning of 2 very important technologies. 

First is satellite driven oil exploration.  This is super important and has been finding massive deposits of oil and gas.  

Second is fracking.  Which allows us to extract monumentally more oil and gas from existing fields and open fields thought to never be production grade.  While fracking has been around for 30-40 years, we are only just now understanding engineered fluids and what they can accomplish.  This is a very young field, and only some minor engineering/physics/chemistry has proven extremely useful. 

Have you considered the above points?



Good stuff, glad to see you back in the saddle. Fresh and turden missed you. And yes I have considered the above. I addressed fracking in an earlier post I think. 

Just the need for fracking should make the alarm bells go off. Even someone who hasn't really read up on fossil fuel extraction will understand that it is human nature to maximize profits, which requires extracting the cheapest-to-extract supplies first. That would be the liquid oil. Now that globally and locally we have drawn that down, fracking has come back into financial vogue.  People should be asking "why do we need to frack when we have so much new oil that  our satellite's are discovering?"  Fracking is expensive in many ways, and as typical in the oil extraction industry, the true costs are ignored and hidden; drilling three mile horizontal wells, pumping chemicals down into shale and the water table, huge waste 'storage' problems; unfortunately, fracking will allow us to briefly hammer the environment and stagger further down the abyss while continuing to ignore the reality of what the term 'finite supply' means to an ever-expanding demand.
We had an opportunity in the 1970's to alter the path that we are now on. We abandoned that opportunity so that we could continue our orgy of excess. We all chose a belief about what the future will bring, and we all joined one of the four groups that I mentioned in an earlier post. Ultimately,  as long as our leaders and our citizens refuse to say out loud that 1--we will soon run out of oil and 2-- we need to plan, create, and begin implementing a viable alternative to fossil fuels for harnessing and distributing energy throughout this country, then imo within 100 years we will indeed return to life similar in many ways to what it was in the 1500's Europe.

I love your techno-optimism, and I really hope that you are right. I fear that it is way too late for 'new' research into 'beginning' technologies to solve the scope, scale, and timeline of our problem.  Bottom line for me is, ANY further resources poured into any energy 'source' other than solar/wind/hydro that requires fossil fuels (including engineered fluids) is an indication that we continue to refuse to face our reality. Finite means Will Run Out. 

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"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
woody

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Reply with quote  #242 
Bernie is your guy. Nominate him next time and see how well free everything does at the ballot box. I’m sure a lot of people will jump on the free college, free HC bandwagon. Not sure how you would propose extracting that kind of wealth from citizens and companies to pay for it all without killing the golden goose.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #243 
Quote:
bluedog: Oil-and-gas consumption will always be the order-of-the-day........It will never run-out...........


First, hope I didn't delete one of your beloved dots when cut `n pasting to quote you.

I'm confused. I know there is some reference to a bottomless cup of wine in the bible. Was that story like all the others and merely a metaphor? Was Matty really referring to an oil field?

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #244 
Terp, take your socialist sh1tpie nonsense to another thread. I think that there's one where fresh has some advice for you.
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"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #245 
Quote:
I'm confused.


I know..........It's because of where you get your information...........Mankind can't help you anymore than you can help yourself...........
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #246 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyGrayce



Good stuff, glad to see you back in the saddle. Fresh and turden missed you. And yes I have considered the above. I addressed fracking in an earlier post I think. 

Just the need for fracking should make the alarm bells go off. Even someone who hasn't really read up on fossil fuel extraction will understand that it is human nature to maximize profits, which requires extracting the cheapest-to-extract supplies first. That would be the liquid oil. Now that globally and locally we have drawn that down, fracking has come back into financial vogue.  People should be asking "why do we need to frack when we have so much new oil that  our satellite's are discovering?"  Fracking is expensive in many ways, and as typical in the oil extraction industry, the true costs are ignored and hidden; drilling three mile horizontal wells, pumping chemicals down into shale and the water table, huge waste 'storage' problems; unfortunately, fracking will allow us to briefly hammer the environment and stagger further down the abyss while continuing to ignore the reality of what the term 'finite supply' means to an ever-expanding demand.
We had an opportunity in the 1970's to alter the path that we are now on. We abandoned that opportunity so that we could continue our orgy of excess. We all chose a belief about what the future will bring, and we all joined one of the four groups that I mentioned in an earlier post. Ultimately,  as long as our leaders and our citizens refuse to say out loud that 1--we will soon run out of oil and 2-- we need to plan, create, and begin implementing a viable alternative to fossil fuels for harnessing and distributing energy throughout this country, then imo within 100 years we will indeed return to life similar in many ways to what it was in the 1500's Europe.

I love your techno-optimism, and I really hope that you are right. I fear that it is way too late for 'new' research into 'beginning' technologies to solve the scope, scale, and timeline of our problem.  Bottom line for me is, ANY further resources poured into any energy 'source' other than solar/wind/hydro that requires fossil fuels (including engineered fluids) is an indication that we continue to refuse to face our reality. Finite means Will Run Out. 

The myth that fracking goes directly into the water table is easily proven false.  Oil deposits are always a mix heavy, and light hydrocarbon fluids.  They accumulate in that location because the geology of that location forms a basin that holds those types of liquids.  Most early fracking was forcing benzine into the Oil deposit layer. Benzine is already present in these formations, and was likely pumped from the same well, just reintroduced under pressure.  

Modern fracking is not that far from chemically treated pool water with some salt and some sand.  Oil and gas production industry is heavily regulated and monitored.  There have been spills in the past, and they remain a cause for vigilance, reporting and regulation.  But in general the oli and gas industry remains a vital part of our modern lives energy cycle. 

The reasons the the efforts in the 70's faltered were pure economics.  The reason that things are turning now is economics.  It is just not realistic to think that even something as massive as our federal government could significantly change the economics of energy.  Even if the federal government stopped doing everything else, free college, free healthcare, defense, they could really only make a minor dent in the economics of energy.  Energy represents about 20% of the GDP, it is massive.  Government can and should encourage continued improvements in our approaches, but cannot significantly alter the economics. 

I think the unrealistic economic expectations of some concepts that have been pursued in the past results in their failure.  Worse is that those failures sucked significant capital investment from they system.  That capital would have likely flowed into more economically viable solutions.  The government is horrible at investing in things like this, as we saw in the Solyndra debacle. 

It would be much better if the government would offer several billion in physics and chemistry research grants targeting solar panel efficiency, solar panel production cost reductions, solar panel longevity, battery storage, alternative energy storage, distributed grid energy systems.   Innovations in these areas can easily change the economics of energy production and you will see things improve greatly.

Life will never return to the way it was in the 1500's Europe.  It was not that great.  Famine killed of millions.  Plague/disease killed off millions more.   Life expectancy was like 27 years.  Infant mortality rate was like 15-20%.  

Humans, led by responsabile Americans, will continue to innovate, including innovations in energy production.  It will be an economical viable transition from our current energy consumption

Most of the growth in energy consumption is because we are modernizing parts of the world that have not yet been modernized.  Africa, India, China, Russia all have vast areas and great numbers of people that are being brought into modern society and as a result are consuming more energy.   If it is no longer economically viable to bring those societies forward to modern world standards, then that would stop and energy demand would flatten.  The reason these areas are growing in energy consumption today, is because the world energy production can meet their needs in a cheap enough fashion.  

I am actually impressed with where we have gotten to from an renewables standpoint.  15% of US electrical generation is now renewable.  That is significant.  2% of the worlds energy consumption is renewables.  We are now investing like $400 Billion a year in developing new renewable energy production sites.  We are seeing both the scope and scale of renewable projects grow significantly.  You can only do that with something producing that $400 Billion, with the current wind fields, and solar fields that are generating operating revenue that can then be invested back into building new fields. 

10 years ago someone building a 10 million dollar wind farm was massive news.  Now you see several 100 Million dollar projects going in.  At this same time you have seen the cost of a large wind generator, for example, drop to almost 1/10th of what it cost 10 years ago.  So that 100 Million dollar project is going to produce almost 10x the electricity, just based on cost of turbines.   Those turbines are 30% more efficient.  Our ability to place those wind turbines has improved significantly as well.  So that 100 Million dollar project is going to product like 13 or 14x what that 10 million dollar investment would have produced in the past. 

You are also seeing the reengineering of the distribution network required to keep our electrical grid operating with renewables taking on significant parts  of the load.  The fast start natural gas turbine electrical plants that are getting distributed everywhere are required to allow wind and solar to produce.  You have to be able to let the wind ramp up when there is wind, or solar when there is sun, and be able to replace those renewables when there is no wind or sun.  
 
This is really now a economies of scale problem more than raw innovations problem.






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I'm more getting a sense that willie wynn is dewey is a F'n loser. 
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #247 
When a fracking-well is drilled, the hole that's bored in the ground is drilled to a depth past the water table..........Then, pipe is cemented in the bore-hole..............Only when that cementing is done does the drilling continue...........Nothing coming back through that pipe can get in the water table..........Even if it were to leak through the pipe, the cement would prevent that from happening..............
TerpAlum

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Reply with quote  #248 
OK Earlybird, the tax deductions our country gave families for education years ago (and that are being taken away now) are some socialist thing...Maybe you should lobby against that expanded child care credit the repubs are putting in the tax bill.

But not the corporate welfare that the removal of these benefits give companies (and that allowable deduction for private airplanes), that's fine and dandy....got it.

Oh, since all this pie in the sky technology will come out of companies out of the kindness of their hearts...oh I see you all want the government to invest in that. Is that socialist?
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #249 
Terp. As far as I can tell from your various posts, you don't seem smart enough to find the theme of this thread and to add meaningfully to it. There is a tax reform thread that would better suit your purpose. 
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"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #250 
Maybe she can start her own thread. Why do they like to hijack people's work?
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #251 
Typical conversation with 'bluedog':

Quote:
bluedog: Oil-and-gas consumption will always be the order-of-the-day........It will never run-out...........
 

BS: First, hope I didn't delete one of your beloved dots when cut `n pasting to quote you.

I'm confused. I know there is some reference to a bottomless cup of wine in the bible. Was that story like all the others and merely a metaphor? Was Matty really referring to an oil field?                 

Quote:
bluedog: I know..........It's because of where you get your information...........Mankind can't help you anymore than you can help yourself...........


More BS: I don't read the bible so I was asking YOU, was Matthew your source of reference for this bottomless pit of oil? Guess you are right, considering the source, my problem was where I, "get my information".

As to helping myself, I'm married. If you use other methods, no judgment from me.

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #252 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepinitreal
Maybe she can start her own thread. Why do they like to hijack people's work?


I suppose that it is because the social justice 'warrior' lacks impulse control or emotional control, so they can't help but blurt their latest talking point with little regard to context or surroundings.

__________________
"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #253 
BillSmith, you say you don't read the Bible.........And, you ask me if I'm using text from Matthew to explain a particular belief............Now, with this being noted..........

I have to question your intent...........The Bible is the Creator's written Word - in it's entirety............Folks like to isolate Scripture in an attempt to discredit it...........I understand the concept............And, I understand why it's done............

Here's what I'm saying - and have always said...........Contrary to what religion alludes to, there's no secret text in the Bible - no mysteries that are available to only a few...........The timeline of the age of the earth is in there for all to read..........It cannot be misunderstood - it's quite simply put...........Who will destroy this earth and how it will be done is in there, also - and quite simply put............And, there are many places in the Bible which tie-in to the explanations..........

Another thing to be learned by reading the Bible is that all those who don't read will be fooled..........So, maybe by revealing this to you, you will understand why my answer to your question should be a foregone conclusion............Of course I don't use just a verse from Matthew to formulate my answer............ 

I must say, it's uncanny how similar folks who worship their particular religion and folks with your belief-system are so alike............It's the same as it was when Jesus lived on this earth........

BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #254 
My interpretation of the above is unless I read the bible, I'll be unable to discern from any man, including you, as to its message. So, asking you anything in regard to explanation of your assertions is useless. Well, that's...useless.

Since you bring up 'age of earth' I might be led to believe this is a basis of your reading leading to your statement that oil and gas will never run out. Of course not! The earth will be destroyed long before then. Silly me.

And my intent, though jocular, was simple. Queried as to how you could assert than fossil fuels were limitless.

As for my belief system, perhaps to you I am the same as "religious folk". We have an overriding difference. They have faith in a God. I have faith in Bill. Unless you are mistaking me for George Burns or Morgan Freeman. Heck, I got demoted this season and won't be Santa at the city tree lighting. I'm so bummed.

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #255 
Is this insensitive or innovative marketing?

[bf3] 

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #256 
Quote:
As for my belief system, perhaps to you I am the same as "religious folk". We have an overriding difference. They have faith in a God. I have faith in Bill.


A god is whatever people worship - yourself, money, a religion,  etc...........False gods, but gods to people, nonetheless............

Those worshipping a religion are the same as you in the aspect that matters to the Creator in the Bible................

Neither of you praise, worship and follow the Creator in the Bible.............So, in that aspect, you are all-the-same.............

The Bible tells us that in-the-end there will be two groups of people only - Bible-believing followers and the others.........There will be no third group.............

As for fossils..........We know they exist..........How long it took to form them is our disagreement..........Your faith in your answer is in a belief-system...........So is my answer - just a different belief-system............
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #257 
I wish there was a bible thread around here somewhere.
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"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #258 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyGrayce
I wish there was a bible thread around here somewhere.

Say no more: 
http://robocoach.websitetoolbox.com/post/bible-thread-blue-and-friends-9492440?pid=1301938915#post1301938915

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I'm more getting a sense that willie wynn is dewey is a F'n loser. 
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #259 
To understand how Empire collapses, two things need to be kept in mind:

1-As the Empire accrues capital (which comes in many forms), its maintenance costs outrun its available resources; So.....
2-An Empire requires a wealth pump, whether whats being pumped is natural resources, cheap labor, land usage for military presence, or a place to dump waste; Empire pumps wealth from subject nations to itself, and this wealth is a non-renewable resource for Empires. 

Examples:
Rome systematically conquered and looted neighboring nations, until their wealth was extracted; then inevitable expansion to other nations, until Rome finally included every nation that was part of the ancient Mediterranean economic and cultural sphere, from the tin mines of Britain to the rich farmland of the upper Nile. The end result is a government that staggers from one fiscal and military crisis to another, until the Dark Ages arrive.

England ruled over India, and pumped tremendous amounts of wealth out of that country. In just over two centuries, England ran India's economy into the ground, and turned what had been one of the world's richest and most productive countries into one of the poorest.

In all meaningful aspects, our Empire has been subsidized and propped up by fossil fuels, and still is. We have never paid the true costs of fossil fuel extraction and drawdown. 

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"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
woody

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Reply with quote  #260 
I would say that Europe has never really paid the US for securing ME oil, and protecting the shipping routes that it travels.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #261 
Hello friends.  We have come to believe that the world belongs to humans. This is incorrect. Humans belong to the world, just as every other living thing does. Our anthropocentric world view is incorrect. animism is the correct religion and world view.

Humans have been roaming the earth for 3 million years. Until about 10,000 years ago, humans were in harmony and balance with all living things. That balance has been destroyed by anthopocentrism, agriculture, and fossil fuels drawdown.

There is no record of the history of humans for 2,990,000 years. Bones, fossil records, remnants, but no record of the cultures and civilizations and empires that came and went during that period of time.  We mistakenly think that there are no records because that long period of time was "pre-history". How nuts is that?

So here we are. In the blink of a geologic eye (10,000 years), we have made some grave mistakes. We also mistakenly believe that all of the last 3 million years was just one straight climb to the pinnacle, where we currently reside. Actually, the journey is circular, and we are just at the tail end of another cycle.

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"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
woody

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Reply with quote  #262 
We also developed a means of feeding large populations, eradicated diseases that wiped out whole continents, and evolved into an educated world that is tightly bound together by a combination of self driven interests, and mutually shared common values that prevent our own self destructive compulsions. All in all, God created a beautiful work of art, and without his occasional intervention, I doubt we would have traveled this far without his hand guiding, and intervening from time to time.
__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #263 
In 2017, we humans are a lost and needy people. We feel needy, because we don't feel needed.
We were born in the sea, three billion years ago. We belong to the community of life on this planet-it doesn't belong to us. About 10,000 years ago, we got confused about that. 
The secret to this world was not a secret until we made it one.  It was known to the first humans to walk the earth. It was known to every generation thereafter, and never doubted, until we began to doubt it 10,000 years ago.
Understanding animism will set you free. The 'gods' are contained in every living thing. No species can set itself apart from all the rest, and make itself the ruler of all the rest. All must belong.

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"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #264 
The earth is 4,000 - 6,000 years old...........

The Bible is the only True record of history we have..........
rudymartinez

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Reply with quote  #265 
I don't know which is more unrealistic.

1) Humans evolved from the sea millions of years ago. Prove the missing link.

2) Scientology's version of alien genetic cloning and hybrids. L R Hubbard, say no more.

3) The Bible and Adam and Eve. Dinosaurs.

4) The truth will be revealed upon our death. Credible witnesses.

As it it currently progressing, human extinction is imminent.
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #266 
Rudy what will be the cause of the human extinction?
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"Steelman, let me just ask you to knock it off with shots from two handles, or own up to it.  Please.  It's no wonder readers think there are so many Conservatives inside here."---dewey aka Will I Wynn
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #267 
The Truth is revealed when we read the Bible..........

Most people have never read...........Most church-going folk hear false-teaching and believe it 'cause they don't read for themselves..........

The Bible tells us that many will be fooled.............The only way not to be fooled is to read..........

Those who are looking for earthly blessings have already been fooled.......... 
rudymartinez

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Reply with quote  #268 
Erle - simple answer humans. Complex answer humans.

This is for you Blue - " But about that day or hour no one knows..."
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