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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #31 

LMUfan - I knew that but since some folks here know we're acquainted, I wanted to clarify there could no connection.

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #32 

JG and LMUfan - While we're at it, and this has come up before, why is it necessary that somebody bend in these debates?  When you watch a debate, do you expect one side to tell the other that's an excellent point you just made?  Is that how you see the roll of debates?  Why do you expect any different here?  It's my understanding each side makes a passionate and well thought out case for their side of the issue in hopes of winning the debate.

How do you expect folks to come to political conclusions if this site is a poor example?  Please give me an idea how you would tell someone to figure out their politics.  What's wrong with listening to Dewey and DaddyO state their case and then allowing the folks to process it on their own?  Do you have better suggestions?  I'll never understand the criticism that we're being unyielding.  The debate participants are not trying to change each other but rather influence the audience.  If I were a politician working in Government, that would be whole different scenario.  I'm not and I'll never understand why a back and forth here, where neither will bend, is any different than any other debate?  What am I missing?

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #33 
Dewey - Why didn't you tell me that we posters were in a debate.  I would have brought out my saber and my old debate skills.  No wonder I've been confused.  I thought  all this time that we were having a discussion.  Yikes - you have given me a new understanding.  Now I can tell Charlie that he doesn't know what he's talking about and should shift his thinking drastically to agree with mine 100%.     Personally, I think that's really arrogant of both sides to assume 100% rightness before a word is written or spoken.  I will not involve myself in that type of thinking.  But if younse guys think that is a good intellectual exercise, be my guest.   Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #34 
JG - Yes, that's my question.  Is some of the criticism that I'm supposed to approach this as a discussion rather than a debate?  I do on occasion but mostly I'm taking the opposing side to the opinions I read or taking a side on the opinions I make.  If I explain I'm primarily debating, does that give me a pass?

I caught a significant amount of uncomplimentary criticism from LMUfan and I'd really like to hear his comments on how my approach differs from any ordinary debate.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #35 
LMUfan - I appreciate that but me thinks you're going to leave me hanging out here trying to figure out what is expected of me around here.

I'm not really sure what discussing politics means.  Most of the time it probably applies to those who are making the decisions.  They have to come to a consensus.  As for me, I generally watch others debate a point and eventually I form my own conclusions.  That's gone on for years now. 

If someone points out unemployment is up to 10% and asks is that the kind of hope and change you asked for, I guess I could say, no it isn't, I disagree with you cherry picking this one stat but, then again, I guess you could be right and we may have been misled.  You know that wouldn't be Dewey and I never expected that's what this forum intended.

Now today isn't the first time I've suggested I approach these issues like a debate.  I've said it many times before.  I've asked everyone to assume a huge bias of me and, further yet, just pretend I'm an inner circle guy detemined to defend the Administration with everything I have.  I'm not trying to hide any of my motives in here.

I know Republicans think any kind of tax cut will cost jobs.  Do they know that for sure?  Absolutely not.  Same with me and extending payroll tax cuts.  Do I know for certain this will help the economy?  Absolutely not.  Never am I trying to suggest I'm all knowing but instead, using these two examples, we simply take a position and argue it to the best of our ability.  And like I said earlier, I can recall twice I've taken the side of the Right in here and I bet I can find more.  I'm not looking though until I see an example in the other direction.

Finally, I wanted a deeper response to my last question so I could more easily understand the criticisms presented to me.  I have a great deal of posts here and if anyone would like to pick one out and rewrite it from debate form to discussion form, maybe I'd get a clearer picture.  Until then, I'm on my own to figure this out.

   
Lovemesomesoftball

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Reply with quote  #36 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
In my definition, a good debater can take either side with ease, conviction and winning arguments.  And do it all without emotion.

I think, though, that I'm at the end of my posting of this thread.  I've upset someone I respect dearly and that's not a good thing to continue.


A good debater can take either side of the fence and extract strong emotions from others.  Also just because those speaking or writing appear emotional, it doesn't mean they are......many great communicators know what to say, how to say it, when to push and when to pull.


With much respects to you Dewey....and I have written this to you in pm.....don't take it so serious. Most of the posters you are debating with you have never met. Yes they are human and there is a sacredness to human being thus all deserve respect but seriously.....you getting this worked up about anonymous posters. Who cares what you, me, or anybody says at the end of the day. Unless they sign your paycheck

People have an opinions. Some of their opinions are shared by millions, while millions others disagree. What are you trying to accomplish? Do you want slideby7 or swifty to say...."ok, I see your point".....??? Do you want PGP to stop by a softball game one day and sing Kumbya with you....??? Not going to happen.

Accept it for what it is. They disagree with your point of view. Most of the disagreements tend to be uncivil because parties don't want to type 3 pages or read 3 pages. They often replace content with zingers as a way to get their point across. If you are this concern why not hold a misc forum meeting at the Palm Springs tournament in Feb. Anybody who wants to participate in the discussion has to buy me a shot of Amaretto and a Stella.

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #37 
LMSS - Thanks.  You know I always appreciate what you have to say but I'm not sure where we're going with this.  I have three choices when people choose to question my integrity or character rather focus on my position.  I can return the favor, ignore them altogether, or occasionally come out and question why folks feel the need to take shots at me rather than what I'm arguing.  I chose the third.  I'm not all worked up about anything but at certain points I find the need to put it out there.  These folks can take heed or ignore me totally.  Their call.  I suppose I could turn the question around and ask others why do they care when I call people out for being rude?  Don't get worked up about it and just ignore me.  And no, I don't think we're going to do this in Cathedral City.  But I will buy you that drink. 

And with that, I have some Fall ball to attend.  Have a good evening.
woody

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Reply with quote  #38 
Dewey, we are equally passionate in our debate. We can pat ourselves on the back all day, but as JG alluded to, perhaps just once in a far of distant moon next millennium, you might possibly admit that at sometime, the current administration may have, possibly, might after thorough review and thoughtful insight, possibly, just maybe possibly have made some type of error while attempting to run this country. Possibly, maybe, an outside chance? James Carville shares your task, and he has some serious doubts about this administration, and says so. Others tow the line, and fall off the cliff without question. Dewey, if you want to totally destroy the Democratic party, if you wish to keep the blinders on, and go all in, well that is your choice. But please do not be distraught when the 2012 elections decimates the party you have put it all out on the line for. I am afraid the Democrat party may well have cast themselves as a party of Socialism. I know that is a foul dirty word, but a growing majority of Americans are tired of the handout big government style that is the Democratic Party. We can debate it, and argue the righteousness of Socialism, but the mainstream of America is about to have a major backlash against the Democrats. It is not just a down economy that is no fault of the Democrats. It is not about continually worsening unemployment that is not the fault of the Democrats. It is not about continuing declines in consumer confidence that is not the fault of Democrats. It is not about a welfare state that is not the fault of the Democrats. It is not about overreaching Federal regulations that are not the fault of Democrats. It is not about obvious political paybacks that are the not fault of Democrats. It is not because the current administration despite the elections in 2010, and proclamations to the public that they "get it" and their immediate turnaround and doubling down on socialism . Despite the recent upset elections in heavily, blue districts, it is not the fault of the Democratic party. At what point do you conceivably admit that the Democratic Party is going against the wishes of the majority of American voters? I cannot believe JG actually called you out on it, but your unwillingness to address the glaringly obvious mistakes and outright bumblings of this administration are rendering your voice as a debater as irrelevant as that of President Obama within his own party members in congress.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #39 

Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
Dewey...your unwillingness to address the glaringly obvious mistakes and outright bumblings of this administration are rendering your voice as a debater as irrelevant as that of President Obama within his own party members in congress.

woody - Then we have no problem.  I've made the best case I can on behalf of President Obama and others have made the best case they can against him.  According to you I've lost.  Then what's the problem?

In the end, maybe this is what most of you wanted here all along.  Please tell us Obama has failed somewhere and then we can call it unanimous.  Please.

My friend JG gave me some advice that he thought might make things easier for all of us.  As always, I respect what he says and took his comments very seriously.  That said, I'm not certain he's paid close enough attention to all my exchanges with the folks here to know how critical this particular request is to the Conservatives here.  In the end, it's my decision if I want to criticize the President inside this forum.  Everyone has the right to weigh this decision of mine, or lack thereof, against any arguments I present.

You and I both know that everybody makes mistakes and that includes each and every President who has ever held office.  That goes without saying.  Why I have to go further than that to satisfy those on the opposing side politically is something I'll never fully understand.  Now what comes next?   We'll give you ten things Obama has done right if you'll give us one thing he has done wrong.  Hmmm, let me think about it. 

Finally, we have drifted a bit off the topic of this thread but maybe I can bring it full circle.  Woody expressed a lot of frustration regarding the stands I do or don't take, and did it in a very stern manner.  Yet not once did he call me an idiot, suggest I was personally enabling the Government to steal money from the citizens, or accuse me of having no desire to help people.  He simply finds my political comments to be irrelevant, biased, and/or shallow and made his case to both me and our readers.  It goes to show if one tries, it's not that hard to stay with the issues.      

sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #40 
dewey - you obviously aren't willing to admit what your vote means when you vote for liberal politicians.  when you vote that way you are voting for the govt to take the money from decent hard working people and give to others the way they see fit.  Its legalized stealing and you know it.  I worked for my money and why should anyone else get to decide what to do with it.  Heck, even a lot of the repubs do that.  It needs to stop.  The govt has a hard enough time keeping our borders closed and safe and keeping us safe.  Maybe until it can do that job well we shouldn't be asking it to butt into our kids education, our diets and what we should eat, and especially not take over my health care and retirement.
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Susan
BombsAway

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Reply with quote  #41 
Sbmom-Don't forget about the light bulb police. Somehow cancer causing cigarettes slipped past all the lawmakers for decades. The government, left and right, picks winners and losers with no accountability. They blame each other and continue screwing the American people.

Dewey-Sorry I went off track your original post. I usually just read the posts for entertainment. Once in a while I will type a response but I usually end up deleting before sending. I was adding to sbmom's example.

The government has me frustrated with the self serving actions of both parties. Thank God for the tea party to slow down the train wreck. Of course, they are called obstructionists by the Dems and the mainstream media. Has anyone every thought that maybe, just maybe, they are the voice of the American people? I truly believe a great majority of Americans want to help those who are less fortunate but some have to help themselves at some point. The incentives to help yourself are becoming less and less everyday.

I would rather pick my winners and losers instead of the government doing it. I think my interests better serve our country.

Sorry, I probably got off topic again.

Woody-well said!
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #42 

Woody, that was a nice post!  (BTW, I wish we had an "applause graemlin" because that better suits what I'd put here.)

BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #43 
Here ya go...



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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #44 
Susan - Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the rest".  Government, by its very nature, controls a populace to some degree, and it does need money to exist. Our founding fathers gave government the right to tax.  Maybe unfortunately they didn't establish how or how much, and they gave Congress control of the purse strings without a balanced budget or effective Congressional term limitations, or an order to not be in bed financially with the corporations or the military establishment.  Thus, we owe over three trillion in credit card debt, and government has stolen dedicated tax moneys from Social Security to buy whatever they wanted at a given time.  Corruption, influence peddling, and waste are rampant in Washington , and that's our tax dollars at work.  It's the SYSTEM in my mind and no particular political party that is at fault, though both major parties are guilty.  It is, in fact, "The Washington Way" unfortunately for we citizens.  When the Parties create a political rift, it takes away from the magnifying glass on the corrupt system and an opportunity to blame the "enemy" to the detriment of all our citizens.  

In my eyes, our government system is wide open for corruption, waste, and pork added to important bills as riders, as well as undue influence from corporations and wealthy patrons and the horribly slanted media.  So you think that government is stealing your hard earned money?  So do I, not because government shouldn't tax, but because the extreme lack of oversight allows for corruption and much  waste.  How can a government lose 60 billion of our tax dollars (yours, Susan, and mine) in Iraq and Afghanistan in government contracts to reconstruction contractors, and without any bids for contractors' services?  Yet, many conservatives focus on the waste and corruption in "entitlement programs".  You, as a conservative want "small government", and so do I except that my definition is the removal of waste and corruption, including unnecessary government departments and "political plums".  I want a government that is as "skinny" as possible without waste of my tax dollars and without internal corruption or "Party favors".    Government on the federal level has become a "cash cow" and is bloated.  Party politics absolutely overcomes national interests.  Disgusting !!!  Can we really afford Iraq and Afghanistan (I speak here only financially, not including human lives which is another debate - government decrees and the gallant military responds to the order).  

I gladly paid my municipal taxes because that government returned services and beneficial organizations to our community, as well as a terrific school system, and I gladly paid "school taxes" after my three had graduated because we all must "donate" to our general welfare as a community I believe. I also believe that of the national community, but I don't believe that my tax dollars should be stolen by unscrupulous people. 

I despise paying my federal income tax because of the waste and corruption.  I feel like I'm throwing most of my federal tax money down a huge sewer. 

I do believe in helping "the least of these" and see that as a role of government, but the lack of oversight that allows for blue collar and white collar welfare to those not needy is repugnant to me.  Wasteful and corrupt !!!!!  Someone must "clean up Washington" if our great nation is to remain as one of the best in the world.  Now, "Who will bell the cat?".                                                               

 The only viable suggestion I have read here on UCS is an independent and non corruptible private enterprise group paid by our tax dollars to investigate and expose and correct the waste and corruption that is rampant in our federal government.  Maybe retired government people who no longer need to be thieves but know the system?  (Remember when the US Government hired Joe Kennedy to close the loopholes in the stock market?   That was after he made his bundles with loopholes.)  We can't ask the criminals who benefit most from "the system" to correct it while they are in it, but maybe those who already have and understand "The Washington Way" can do it.  

Rant over !!       Frank

 

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
woody

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Reply with quote  #45 
There is a private enterprise to end the Washington way. It is a loosely organized grass roots group called the Tea Party.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #46 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BombsAway

Sorry, I probably got off topic again.



BombsAway - That's fine.  I think we completed the original subject at hand and are back discussing politics.  Feel free.

On a side note, Dick Morris suggested Gov Perry get off the SS topic.  He said it's Constitutional, Government is allowed to collect taxes and disburse them, and he also said no way can you hand this off to the States as the poorer ones are in no position to administer Social Security.  Not sure the Tea Party has come to a consensus on this subject. 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #47 
Woody - Not really what we need.  Yes, they do, to some degree, voice opposition to "big government", but unfortunately they do it as a gnat disturbing an elephant and only from one Party perspective.  Hardly what I had in mind.   Frank 
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
woody

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Reply with quote  #48 
28 gnats in the House disturbed and perturbed the elephant during the debt funding debate. They were blamed for everything under the Sun. 
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
woody

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Reply with quote  #49 
Hey it is raining in Texas, I ran out to the pond to help. You see we had six month old catfish that I had to teach to swim. Took them to school so to speak.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #50 
Woody - Good for you.  All of nature, including mankind, have a need to help each other for survival, and you folks in Texas have received one of nature's worst recently.  My best wishes for an excellent recovery.  

By the way, I see the Tea Party politically as serving the same purpose as Ralph Nader's Party (splitting the Party vote) did when Bush Jr.  won the Presidency.  
They could be inadvertently responsible for electing President Obama to a second term.  

Frank

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
POV

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Reply with quote  #51 
What may have started out as a grass roots movements has now become a puppet for the Koch brothers.

  Check out the relationship between Americans for Prosperity (Koch funded) and the misinformed tea people who are being played like a fiddle by Big Business.   
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #52 
Woody - Please read POV's post with an open mind.  In some parts of our country, that is exactly the reaction to the Tea Prty.   Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #53 
Jg - a committee can be bought.  look what lobbyists are trying to do with super committee right now.  It has to  be the people standing up and saying we want term limits, balanced budget, etc... from our reps.  There is to much money.  We have had so many committees it makes me puke. I realize no private committees, but still small enough to be bought.  The tea party is the fledgling movement, yes it has it weaknesses, but is getting  better all the time.  
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Susan
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #54 
Susan - You know it's wrong for our nation that committees can be purchased, and I know it's wrong for our nation, but we are just one vote in an election.  We can talk about theory and right and wrong, but the power is elsewhere, and purchased by multi millionaires. Once again, our financial system has become our government.  Our Representative (in theory) government has become another capitalistic enterprise.   I do feel very bad about that, but also helpless.  The general theory of a groundswell movement against corruption and excessive government is a grand idea, but unfortunately they too can be bought for political purposes.  Everyone has a price.  I do hope that mine is very, very, very high.    Frank
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #55 
Jg - thats why we have to get active.  look how much the tea party has done in little time.  You cant be such a pessimist.  If you get one or two people active and it starts exponentially increasing things can happen and big business cant by everyone off.  Initially things have to be simple like term limits and balanced budget and slowly you deal with more.
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Susan
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #56 
Susan - No doubt, but I see so many people solidly and absolutely embedded in a Republican or Democrat state of mind instead of a "let's clean up our federal mess" state of mind, that I see little hope for reform, just more of the same, whether the tax monies flow upward or downward, or more likely to the thieves who prey on our  "representatives".  The Washington Way is a cement wall to change and to changing a system that benefits the very politicians that wield power.  Just which Party is going to change that?  Won't happen as long as "PARTY" is the major perspective instead of "NATION".  My nation bleeds, and Partys bicker without any thought of changing the corrupted system.   Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #57 
Jg - thats where you and I will have to agree to disagree.  It wont happen overnight and it will take time and lots of effort.  But there is the beginnings of a movement and we need to keep it going and help it grow.  
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Susan
POV

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Reply with quote  #58 
Dinger, either you're from my part of the country or folks from all over feel this way about the TP.

I sincerely encourage reserarching the connection between the Kochs and funding of the TP.  They're not doing this for the sake of the little people.....and by the time those folks figure it out, well.


CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #59 
I'll let you guys be cynical and I'll listen to people who believe as I do that big government is out of control.  I can't wait for the light bulb police to come in to my house.   

Edited to add:

OK so I told myself to let it be.  Great week for the Dems and BHO's administration.  Solyndra, telling an General to change his statement on Lightsquared, the jobs report and unemployment numbers, some Dems pulling away from this most recent Jobs bill, the election of a R (Tea Party Candidate according to the Dem) in NY, ...  Of course, we can blame the Tea Party for all of this.  Have any of you guys ever visited the heartland?  In my area, more and more people are beginning to think like me.  Scary isn't it.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #60 
CoachB25 -  you are right.  I think these guys are just listening to the Obama mania media.  They are so afraid of people becoming active and taking their money and power away from them.  We need to keep getting more and more people active.  Thats truly what our democracy is all about and people need to respect the responsibility of their vote.  We are very spoiled in this ciuntry and have been taking it for granted for decades now and that direction needs to change. 
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Susan
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