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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #1 
I'm hesitant to start a new thread, (not sure why as 85% of the political threads on the first page are started by Conservatives), but I didn't want my thoughts to be lost in the middle of another thread.

In just the last five days, I've heard the following...

"Dewey, do you want some cheese with that whine?"..."Dewey, you don't really care about people."..."Dewey, you're not worth the time."..."Why does every time Dewey gets trapped in a corner he conveniently has to leave?"...and, "Dewd, you're boring."

If I may be so bold, these are some very shallow responses.  I've said before and I'll say it again, I'm a simple family man, I have no college degree, and, while I may be a business owner for thirty some years, I consider myself a blue collar average working man.  There's nothing out of the ordinary when it comes to yours truly.  I've taken the opportunity in this forum to spill my guts and share with all of you precisely what's in my mind.  In fact, many who don't participate have asked me why I choose to do just that.  I don't really have an answer other than to say that's just me.  I think these topics are worthy.  Needless to say, I've taken my share of heat along the way and that's OK too. 

Now I love one liners, particularly when they apply to jokes, but most of the ones aimed at me in response to my political posts are more than a bit shallow.  They're downright disappointing. 

I'll admit I wish we were discussing politics in front of 1200 folks rather than maybe a dozen and I wish these discussions went much deeper.  Unfortunately, it is what it is.  That said, I've done my best to present a case from my perspective as thorough as possible and as respectably as I can.  I'm fully prepared for the fact many will totally disagree with me.  However, what I will never fully understand is why the unwillingness by so many to put together a well thought out, respectable, and fully coherent case countering the things I put forward.  In other words, why the "cheese and whine" thing?  You can call me misguided, you can call me biased, you can think of me as you like, but in the end, why can't you just accept my opinions and challenge or rebut them as you see fit?  To me, it's just so simple and, after the last week or so, I wanted to get this off my chest.      

 


TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #2 
Dewey, you are a great guy and a long lasting friend. those that are negative to someone  else's ideas have their own problem. Keep fighting for what you believe in.
I enjoy and respect your inputs. KEEP IT UP buddy.

DaddyO

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Reply with quote  #3 
Herein lies the problem.

I say that the effort to try to convince you to think like one of the TEA party is not worth the time.

Then here comes this, saying that I said you weren't worth the time.

You knew what I meant.  You agreed with it.  Then you deliberately misquoted it in order to serve your own agenda.

If you want to be taken seriously, if you want the 'respect' you think you so richly deserve, you might stop this crap.  Just sayin'.

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Scratch a reactionary leftist, find the fascist writhing underneath.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #4 

DaddyO - No misquote.  "You're not worth the time" were your exact words.

POV

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Reply with quote  #5 
Dewey, the majority of the crap comes from one gal with multiple screennames and a couple others.  Those thread starters are 99% these people.....The Usual Suspects.  You know this..... yet you continue to wade in the sewer and then seemed surprised when the rats take a nip at you.  

I have noticed a trickle of others coming in and participating.  Thoughtful, respectful, intelligent.  I'd stick with these folks and stop beating your head against the wall.  I'd wager that if The Usual Suspects were to disappear we'd have more of the thoughtful, respectful and intelligent. 

Again.....much admiration for your patience and willingness to take on this thankless job.

JMO




Dewey

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Reply with quote  #6 

POV - Actually, it was some recent exchanges with one of these new posters that led me to bang my head once more.  Doesn't take much time and, who knows, maybe it will help.  Like you, I too appreciate the few new contributors adding some quality input.  They should help make the 2012 campaign more interesting to discuss.     

slideby7

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Reply with quote  #7 
Mr. Dewey, I doubt that it has occurred to you that the responses you refer to from the Right may well say more about you than the responders.  What difference does it make what percent of the threads are started by whom, it is just that sort of jab that many of us find so annoying.  Suggesting your thoughts would be lost in the middle of another thread is whining.  It happens to all of.

We find your description of our responses as shallow, insulting.  I find your wishing for 1200 folks rather than 12 interesting.  I guess you believe if the forum were well moderated there would be 1200.  Your long rambling, and as some have described boring diatribes do not foster the desire on the part of many to formulate the type of response that you decree as well thought out, coherent and respectable.  It is just that attitude and the "do you still beat your wife" type of questions you pose that are a turn off.

How would you classify this from one of your supporters:
"Dewey, the majority of the crap comes from one gal with multiple screennames and a couple others.  Those thread starters are 99% these people.....The Usual Suspects.  You know this..... yet you continue to wade in the sewer and then seemed surprised when the rats take a nip at you".  

BombsAway

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Reply with quote  #8 
Dewey-
I am a newbie here. What do you think of my solutions to our countries problems?

1. Tort Reform to reduce health care costs.

2. Drill in the USA to reduce the cost of gasoline.

3. Secure the border and enforce CURRENT immigration laws to reduce the strain on our schools, prisons and social programs.

4. Hire a Private firm to find fraud in current social programs because the government has proven it can't or won't do it.

5. Elect a leader that doesn't oppose capitalism. I don't really care if they are a Democrat, Republican, Tea Party, White, Black, Blue, Male or Female.

I have no problem with attorneys, environmentalists, and legal immigrants. I do have a problem with crooks and those that want everything perfect in a world that requires trade-offs. I honestly believe that our social programs could be saved by following my solutions.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #9 

BombsAway - Welcome.  Tort reform is a very deep question with many variables.  I hesitate to limit liability and lean more to trusting our citizens to be jurors.  I think drilling is nearing highs again.  I think McCain and Bush were once on a road to immigration reform I could accept and I'd much prefer to investigate the "big fish" and the financial damage they do to this Country.  That said, I'm for eliminating benefits to anyone who doesn't deserve them.  Finally, we have a leader that doesn't oppose Capitalism and what we really need is an environment that doesn't oppose everything this leader tries to do.


Hammer - Thank you very much and I hope you are doing well.  Will see you in the Spring.
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #10 
BombsAway your No. 2 reasoning is way off. Drilling oil in the US will be more expensive than in the middle east.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #11 
As I see it, the primary problem in the miscellaneous thread is a lack of respect for the concepts of others.  So many posts, in tone and often content, reflect a knee jerk emotional reaction born of a Party or "conservative or liberal" point of view.  Thus, the tone of posts becomes as personal as "You dumb jerk, how could you think like that; you must have your head up your butthole" instead of "I shall consider what you wrote and make up my mind if it has any validity, and I'll get back to you with my response".   Because Dewey represents what appears to be the minority view of posters here, I see him taking increasingly personal flak.  This is still the USA that I grew up cherishing, isn't it?  Yes, I already know that sometimes those on the left employ similar tactics.  I am not chastising only one perspective in the political spectrum, just the general tone of the thread.  

There is a huge difference between a discussion and a mob mentality screaming epithets at a perceived "enemy".  It really is up to we posters to decide which we want to be part of.  Jus sayin'      Frank 


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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
BombsAway

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Reply with quote  #12 
Hammer-
You may be right but just for kicks and giggles I would like to see what happens to the price of oil if we tell the world that we are going to drill in US.

JoiseyGuy

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Posts: 24,434
Reply with quote  #13 
Bombs Away - Love your #4 which is a potential solution to my #1 grievance with federal government.  I would add oversight of pork spending and blue and white collar welfare.  I really like the idea of an independent agency in the private sector because it is virtually impossible to get the crooks to change a system that benefits them.   Frank 
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #14 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
Dewey,

I have to agree with POV.  If you keep feeding the cat it will continue to come to your back door.

LMUfan - Be more specific.  I'm trying to listen to folks like you, tenfour, POV, etc.  Are you suggesting I not answer these folks at all?  Tenfour believes I should refrain a bit more and I'm trying to analyze the validity of that recommendation.  I'm getting mixed signals.  Are you wanting this forum to slow down and feel I'm simply aiding the back and forth with my involvement?  What's the goal our readers envision as it relates to this forum?  I'm willing to help if I understand what is being asked of me. 

I don't mind the cat coming to the door but now and then I take a moment to try and get it to quit scratching me.  I'm not naive enough to believe that's likely but, on occasion, particularly when I'm accused of not caring about people, I find the need to ask others to please allow me a bit more respect than that and respond to my issues rather than discrediting my character.  I'll try to do that less.   
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #15 

Dewey, I think you know respect is earned.  Responding to issues is a two way street. 


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Susan
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #16 
For the sake of accuracy, I should correct one of the quotes in my original post.  Another member actually said...

"Shows how much you really want to help people."

This was in response to my saying SS cannot give underage sick folks part of their fund unless they are declared disabled.  That's simply how the plan is set up.  Due to my position, the implication was I don't really want to help people.  I was inaccurate in saying somebody accused me of not caring for people. 
GoHawks

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Posts: 483
Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

DaddyO - No misquote.  "You're not worth the time" were your exact words.

I think what DaddyO meant to say was "It would be a waste of his time..".  Consider it a compliment!     It would be a waste of his time to try to get me to think like a tea-partier too.

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #18 
LMUfan - I think you're suggesting I'm encouraging the cat to do more than just show up but, fair enough, what's the suggestion to not lose my credibility?  Just answer the question and ignore the negative parts of the poster's comments or ignore the question altogether?  I'm serious, I'd like to hear your point of view. 

GoHawks - I think you're right and I'll forget about that one.  In any event, I've done something to seriously get under DaddyO's skin.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #19 

POV - This goes for you too, (I'd PM you but your handle doesn't accept).  In a perfect world, what would you like to see me do here?  It is a bit hard to know precisely which handles are duplicates.  I admit to getting PM's asking me why I bother to do this at all but I also get PM's telling me if I stop posting, they'll stop reading.  I'm in a quandary.

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #20 

LMUfan - I've been trying to ignore the kind of posts you're referring to but maybe I haven't recognized all the patterns yet.  I wasn't ready to throw some of the more recent posters under the bus quite yet.  Anyway, thanks for the objective opinion and I'll open my eyes a bit wider.   

BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #21 
Chuck says, "I've said this many times and I'll say it again: You get what you reward. I repeat, you get what you reward."
 
LMUfan is quoting directly from a course many of us have studied,

Internet 451: You & Trolls



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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #22 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith
Chuck says, "I've said this many times and I'll say it again: You get what you reward. I repeat, you get what you reward."
 
LMUfan is quoting directly from a course many of us have studied,

Internet 451: You & Trolls

Bill - Thanks.  I understand what you and Chuck are saying.  Now after a full day thinking this over, let me offer this response.

I participate in this forum to share my opinion on the issues of the day.  Before this, I was left with only letters to the Editor and emails to "The Factor".  I like to put my left leaning thinking out there, particularly in response to something I hear or read.  If somebody wants to criticize this Democrat Administration, I want to counter them with my perspective.  If somebody wants to criticize or ridicule a particular bill sponsored by Democrats, I want to take the opposite position if I feel strongly about it.  I like the exchange of ideas, the back and forth over their worthiness, and the debate we have over which direction this Country should go.  Of course, I'd prefer to do this without calling each other idiots.

What I've concluded from the recommendations I've received here is that while it's OK to debate, debating those who can't stay on issue and need to verbally assault, should be avoided.  Or at the very least, don't continuously call them out for their rude and personal style.  Doing so just starts the cycle all over again.

Thinking it over for 24 hours I'm not certain I totally agree.  I can think of at least three Conservative handles that have simply disappeared around here.  I can think of a couple more Conservative handles that recently suggested it's too difficult to continue and they're going to take a break.  I believe they found the rebuttals of the few Democrats around here to be formidable and they eventually tired of the condemnation they received if and when their frustrations turned to personal attacks.

These examples, from what I can tell, refute much of the "you get what you reward" theory.  What I've tried to do from the beginning is carry on the debate and periodically, when a new poster starts to turn it into a personal barrage, or the number of personal attacks increases, I take another opportunity to write a post urging folks to reconsider their approach.  Call it a condemnation if you want.  As I look back, I think it's worked to some extent and I believe the attacks have decreased.  I think if we just continuously ignore those that go negative, they'll eventually run the whole ship.  I'll let you gentlemen tell me where my conclusions are wrong.


bluedog

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
What I've concluded from the recommendations I've received here is that while it's OK to debate, debating those who can't stay on issue and need to verbally assault, should be avoided.  Or at the very least, don't continuously call them out for their rude and personal style.  Doing so just starts the cycle all over again.
 


It's like the censorship issue.....The most vociferous and vocal opponents of Dewey being able to delete posts were only attacking 'cause it wasn't them who had the ability to delete....Censorship is bad unless they hold the censor button in their hand! 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #24 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
Dewey,

I'll add this:  You certainly do have a high opinion on your ability to debate and present your thoughts.  Not all may agree.  And I believe that may be the reason others give up or give in.  Just as I don't respond or debate with PGP because he is not necessarily logical I generally don't debate with you for the same reason.  I see you both as the same people, albeit with opposite ideologies, one just has a more refined vocabulary.


I deliberately wrote the sentence as follows, (no I):

I believe they found the rebuttals of the few Democrats around here to be formidable and they eventually tired of the condemnation they received if and when their frustrations turned to personal attacks.

However, you're free to characterize me as you wish.  Equating the logic of me and PGP is offensive, to say the least, but I'll leave it to others to form their own conclusions.  Not sure how we went from a back and forth exchange to this extreme conclusion but, I'll consider the rest of your comments. 



 
JoiseyGuy

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Posts: 24,434
Reply with quote  #25 
Charlie - You really think that Dewey and PGP are nothing more than ideological opposites, but Dewey "writes better or more appropriately"???  ?  Your problem solving formula has deserted you I think, and you could not be more wrong.   Frank
PS - More and more on Miscellaneous I perceive some people blinded by an ideological narrowness bordering on zealotry and viewing politics from there.  I don't think that Dewey fits that category despite that he is in the minority on this thread.     


__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #26 
Dewey - While I admire your left leaning Democratic "guts" on this thread, I do think that you should be equally willing to agree in print with those right leaning Republicans who might have something worthwhile to say.  In other words, recognize when your opponents in ideology make a good point in discussion.  It doesn't all have to be combative.  I would say exactly the same to your political opponents.  I haven't been able to agree with all the Party platform planks of any Party candidate for any office yet.  I know that you are a good man, and I admire your time spent on acquiring political and governmental data and analyzing it.  It is amazing to me that you, and some of your political opponents, do such a great job of digging up material to present as support for your various perspectives.   Frank
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Posts: 24,434
Reply with quote  #27 
Charlie - I also have a "similar ideology" to you in certain areas, and would come to your defense if you were chosen as moderator and were attacked by others as I know you to be one of "the good guys".  I see no need to take what Bush Jr. said "You are either with us or against us" as a political stand or perspective. 

 Unfortunately, I do perceive some others as saying just that and labeling others from that perspective. "If you are not 100% us, you must be 'them' " - and against "us", therefore the enemy.  I choose to regard that as "narrow", destructive to understanding, and the major cause of much animosity on this thread.  At times I read certain posters and in my mind see a child in a tantrum and screaming, "I have to have everything all my way or my world is a terrible place".     Frank 

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #28 

LMUfan - I agree with what you said in post #27. 


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Susan
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #29 
LMUfan - I have no choice but to wonder about all the handles you could have picked to equate, you chose the one you did.  Secondly, not sure where the "children are brats" comment fits in our exchange but members in this forum may know that you and I have spoken face to face on a few occasions and I want to assure all of them that Chuck has never met any of my three grown daughters.  Maybe he should have.

Joisey - I've supported my friends on the Right in agreeing that bashing Fox News or the likes of Sarah Palin is unnecessary, irresponsible, and does nothing to move this Country forward.  Secondly, I came to the support of the Right during the Rep. Giffords shooting when the implications began that somehow this may be their responsibility.  That's what I can come up with off the top of my head but I'll try and think of others.  While I do that, I'll put out a challenge for examples of Conservatives here supporting Democrat ideals or agreeing with the points of fellow Democrats.   
Dewey

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Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #30 
JG and LMUfan - While we're at it, and this has come up before, why is it necessary that somebody bend in these debates?  When you watch a debate, do you expect one side to tell the other that's an excellent point you just made?  Is that how you see the roll of debates?  Why do you expect any different here?  It's my understanding each side makes a passionate and well thought out case for their side of the issue in hopes of winning the debate.

How do you expect folks to come to political conclusions if this site is a poor example?  Please give me an idea how you would tell someone to figure out their politics.  What's wrong with listening to Dewey and DaddyO state their case and then allowing the folks to process it on their own?  Do you have better suggestions?  I'll never understand the criticism that we're being unyielding.  The debate participants are not trying to change each other but rather influence the audience.  If I were a politician working in Government, that would be whole different scenario.  I'm not and I'll never understand why a back and forth here, where neither will bend, is any different than any other debate?  What am I missing?
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