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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #121 
--Government spending didn't just become an issue. Obama didn't cause it and neither did Bush...in fact every time we look at a president we have to also look at congress since both sides can block the other. Which means political parties do not work to better america--they work to get their person in office and if their opposition is in office they are to make his/her presidency as rocky as possible. Politics arent about the country--they are about the political party. Say what people want to hear, get elected, change nothing.

--Take away benefits from polititians instead of cutting from military retirement benefits. Polititians should not travel like rock stars.....rock stars pay for their expensive meals, dining, top class travel, and top hotel stays from their own pocket while polititians bill taxpayers.

--Kicking the poor and middle class instead of making the rich pay their fair share will not help the economy. Wal-mart, target, and superstores are owned by the rich. Mom & dad stores got crushed by them. The more we squeeze the middle class the more buisinesses will go under. Why? Because mom & pop cannot compete with the prices of the superstores. They also do not have customer service centers in india, factories overseas, and illegals and kids working in factories all over the usa and world. Some of those making the most do the least to help this country..they merely line their own pockets. That is ok....but pay your share of taxes while avoiding hiring real employees and paying real wages etc. The top needs the middle and bottom in order to stay on top.

--states take more money from the federal government than they give.
The tea party covergirl sarah palin talks about government spending yet while she was in office alaska was top 3 in states that took in more federal money than they paid in. Number 3. At a ratio of 2 to 1 federal money given to money given. In other words alaska's state budget relied mostly on federal money (and still does).

--We spend more money on criminals and illegals than law abiding citizens.
Look at our prison system (prison not jail). California spends around 50,000 per year on each prisoner. Cal spends 7,000 per year on each child for education. wtf?
The average cost in america for a state to support an inmate is $80 per day.
The average cost for per day for probation is around $3.50.
We spend more money in america keeping people locked up and rehabilitated than we do educationg them while young. If you are poor or illegal you are almost better off going to jail then struggling with a minimum wage job and another part time job. You get all your medication and for free, you get 3 square meals a day, you have a place to sleep, a bed, and basics. If you live in a cardboard box on the street with no money you don't have freedom anyways so jail is a step up. Plus you can get your ged in jail and have school paid for.

Jail and prison should be more like bootcamp and a punishment and not summercamp. More work camps. These liberal groups crying it is unfair for prisoners to live in tents and have to work daily need a reality pill. The family that had their daughter killed doesn't think the murderer living in a tent and working their butt off daily to pay their debt to society is too harsh. It is prison not mr. rogers neighborhood. There are people that see getting arrested and going to jail as no big deal. See their people, lift and workout, see some tv, and hang out. Turn those smiles upside down by having them work and live on bare minimum. Punish crime and educate our kids.

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sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #122 
LMSS - I dont know that I would say I tow a party line.  As I have said here before I am just very conservative and against big govt.

Woody - If govt of any form has to be involved I think I would prefer the more local model like Galveston, but each locality can modify to meet their needs.  I also think associations could do something similar with it being totally privatized and could lead to more employees being vested in their industry which could also lead to hopefully better longevity in their employment.

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Susan
woody

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Reply with quote  #123 
sbmom, the Galveston model is touted as the way, but I believe it had some growing pains initially. That said, the more States and more importantly, the more individuals control their money, their future retirement, and thereby their own destiny, the better. Our country and society would be a much freer and self sufficient one because of it.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #124 
Dewey,
It's a long story...will talk to you at Cathedral or Easton one day.
Angela

 
Will one of you send me a transcript?

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #125 
woody, totally agree with the more people control their own money the better.  Get money and power out of the hands of the politicians and big govt.
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Susan
thespinstopshere

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Reply with quote  #126 
POV - I'm sorry if you took my comments as criticism. I have no problem with your comments. I was simply pointing out to Mr. Bolton that from my perspective I read no difference between Jack Dandy's comments and yours. Both appear to reveal frustration and hostility towards those with whom they disagree. And, I merely pointed out that I see this as a very common phenomenon when talking politics.

Again, I apologize if you thought I was being critical.
fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #127 
Galveston is a coastal city...almost an island. It was a major port.
After the hurricane it depended on immigrants- illegals and otherwise as well as exploiting prohibition, gambling and prostitution. Big time illegal booze and prostiturion.

It never recovered back to what it was before the hurricane.
Across the way houston boomed and with federal programs and projects and legal activities it became what it is today--and is the 4th largest city in the usa. And Galveston is seen on girls gone wild and college spring break videos. The tourist party place it became.

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masare

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Reply with quote  #128 
Woody with regard to entitlement programs it's just a matter of which crooks you want handling it...I prefer someone I can fire through an election.
woody

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Reply with quote  #129 
You have got to be kidding me. You would trust a politician in Washington over a small town bank manager who lives in your town, who's children go to school with your children, who sits two rows down from you at church. This speaks volumes. Individual, and local control trumps the Federal system every time.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
whocares

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Reply with quote  #130 
 

    I believe that in 1826 John Adams said

      " There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation.  One is by the sword and the other is by debt"  


       JG, I know you were real young but do you remember him saying that.

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Whocares
woody

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Reply with quote  #131 
Dinger, individual responsibility, or nanny state, you prefer nanny state. I prefer individual responsibility. Which model is more likely to endure as a free country? Which is more likely to lead to an enriched society?
__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #132 
whocares -  No, but I think my mother did.  I did however hear through the grapevine that Alexander Hamilton said, "Your people, sir, is ... a great beast".
He also, in 1787 at the Constitutional Convention said, "Real liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate government".  Mr. Hamilton, despite his taking the silver medal in his famous debates with my main man Thomas Jefferson, is beginning to sound more and more applicable to me.         The times they are a changin !!!    Frank  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
woody

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Reply with quote  #133 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoenix
Galveston is a coastal city...almost an island. It was a major port.
After the hurricane it depended on immigrants- illegals and otherwise as well as exploiting prohibition, gambling and prostitution. Big time illegal booze and prostiturion.

It never recovered back to what it was before the hurricane.
Across the way houston boomed and with federal programs and projects and legal activities it became what it is today--and is the 4th largest city in the usa. And Galveston is seen on girls gone wild and college spring break videos. The tourist party place it became.

Lets get this right. Galveston is an island, it is surrounded by water. After the hurricane, it was rebuilt by the same families and companies that were there before it was decimated. Galveston had illegal gambling, prostitution, and booze before and after the hurricane. Galveston was and is a tourist destination. Galveston is not only recovered, it is booming, and real estate prices are high. Investors are building resort hotels, and condos as we speak. Galveston's port was and is of insufficient size to accommodate the freight being brought in on modern super ships. Houston was designed as a port city from it's inception, and the ship channel was completed. Houston serves as a major port, and the area petro-chem plants produce the products, industry and tax base that made Houston the 4th largest city. Where did you get your info on Galveston never recovering and being occupied by immigrants????

__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #134 

Dinger and Masare - dont think the majority of americans would agree with you if they had the choice.   Plus if it were done at the local level basically the same mechanics could be done, but its just controlled locally either through local govt, associations, banks, work etc....


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Susan
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #135 
fhoenix - Absolutely true.  Early in our nation's history, the guy (or very unlikely or impossible gal) who got the most Presidential votes became President.  The second place person became Vice President.  The problem arose that they could be of opposing parties and different philosophies, so the situations was changed as they impeded progress necessary for our nation's benefit.  Now we face the same problem (perhaps even more stagnating) with our administrative and legislative branches (maybe even our Supreme judiciary).  What was once a "checks and balances" system has become a "thwart and defeat" system as Parties vie for power and the hell with Nation (at least to a large degree, excluding pork for personal reelection).  Even within a given Party, personal gain and reelection trump the nation's good.   The SYSTEM is a mess of corruption and wasteful spending.  How can a citizen trust this form of government or even vote for a viable candidate for any office that might change it?                                                                                                    

This is true especially in a contemporary scene where Party means more than Nation to the Parties because of the election process for power and financial gain managed by big money and the very commercial and biased media.  It is a governmental situation in which our economic system has literally become our government (with attendant values) and our Supreme Court even gives big money the right to buy even more senators and congressmen and women.  In economics, the old WW1 mantra echoes, "And the rich get richer and the poor get poorer".   Capitalism and capitalistic values reign in contemporary USA government and any deviance to care for "the least of these" is regardless as "Socialism".  Even those attempts in government are rampart with thievery and corruption as is "white collar welfare".   I hear Gordon Gekko announce that "Greed is good".                                                            

Now, how do we repair that situation ( or should we, as some cry, "get government out of the way" and let capitalism reign unfettered") or should we  return to the representative government ( of all of "we the people" as envisioned by those who saw pragmatically the necessity for representative government on a national level) that those who improved of necessity with representative government on the very democratic "New England Town Meeting", the agrarian principle of democracy that  the founding fathers created??  Dilemma !!!!!  Thank goodness that we, to a very large degree, maintain our wonderful freedoms.   Frank

PS - On another scientific and  human financial topic, I just saw on TV last night a special documentary on robotics.  Amazing, and more wide spread in actuality than I knew, and just another reason why unemployment is so high.  There will come a time soon when the only factory workers needed will be the ones needed  to create and repair the robots (assuming they don't have robots to make and repair the robots).  Have you read "I, Robot"?   Looks like service industries could become the shelter of the unskilled worker.  This, along with downsizing and outsourcing, does not bode well for unskilled labor in our nation in the near future (or for Unions).  I think we are behind the time continuum in training our populace for a worldwide technological and robotic age.  My advice for young folks in America would be to study robotic engineering and learn Mandarin Chinese.  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #136 
Quote:
You would trust a politician in Washington over a small town bank manager who lives in your town, who's children go to school with your children, who sits two rows down from you at church.


It would be a coin flip!
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #137 
Jg the system is not at fault.  people are at fault.  
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Susan
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #138 
woody and sbmom - In another thread we were talking about the Obama stimulus of 2009.  I'm curious, where do you think that $787 Billion stimulus we borrowed from China, or whoever, ended up?  In the bank accounts of wealthy folks?  In the accounts of middle class folks?  Where did this money end up?  I'll give you my thoughts first.

I know there are folks here who will jump out and say "in the banks of unions".  I doubt $50 billion of that stimulus went to keep teachers on the job and if 1% goes to union dues, (I have no idea), that's 1/2 billion total.  I know, there are police, firemen, and other unions but I didn't think they were as despised.  In any event, how much more could that have possibly totaled as union dues?

I don't think middle class folks put their rebate into savings which leaves wealthy folks and others.  I'm sure the rich socked their share away but they received similar rebates as the rest of us.  Surely with our imports greater than exports some of this money went overseas.  No doubt some returned to the Feds via tax revenues.  But, in my opinion, the overwhelming majority of this entire stimulus simply ended up in the hands of Corporations, businesses, and financial institutions and they continue to hoard it.  Tell me where I'm wrong and remember, stimulus that went to regular folks, unless saved, was eventually spent and ended up in another entity's hands.  I'd like to know where you two think these funds are today.  Off to MNF so I'll read tonight. 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #139 

For the life of me, I can't believe that previous post was a "gotcha" question.

woody

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Reply with quote  #140 
The money went to the banks to cover their toxic assets. Bad real estate loans. They paid off some of their debts, then used the rest to gamble with. Should have let them fall, and let the dust settle. They will do it again and again until they are allowed to fail.

Obamas was mostly handouts to individuals, state retirement funds, tax cuts, earned income tax credit, pell grants, green energy tax credits, loan guarantees to the likes of Solyndra, community development fund handouts, welfare handouts, food stamp handouts, handouts, handouts, handouts. I did see 67 billion in highway construction, VA hospital construction, and some school repairs. Not a ton of jobs, just handouts.


__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #141 
Susan - If you are suggesting that  some people have made the system become the corrupt and wasteful entity that it is, I agree absolutely.  The problem then is that that corrupted system is accepted as "The Washington Way" to govern and do business, and it is financially profitable for those very people who have made it what it is, wasteful and Party driven, and to whom we turn with pleas to correct it.  Why should they when their prime value is profit, personal and general.  In other words, these "people" you speak of have accepted our economic system and its values as their governing principles.    Frank

PS - Yes, ultimately it always is "the people", even when it is "we the people" or the theoretical representatives of "we the people".  Remember that our founding fathers followed a Lockean philosophy that purported that "man in the State of Nature" was "good".  It would thus follow that institutions established by men in a Democracy (why we have a right to vote and choose) would also be good.  This was best manifest in the old New England Town Meeting.                         

 Is that still true in the good old USA or have those principles been corrupted beyond repair by a change in power structures and how elections are conducted, something the founding fathers could not have foreseen, for example the role of mass media and corporate financing as influences on our elections for governing bodies and ultimately the ex office holding  "hired guns" who work in DC to influence legislation in favor of particular corporate or union entities ??  In my opinion, what you and I are talking about here is a "chicken and the egg" situation.  Yes, ultimately it is people, sometimes however a powerful minority financial oligarchy,  and what they make of a system that is presented to them as an opportunity by those in their past. But just sometimes corrupted economic power makes "we the people" basically powerless, even small groups who fight effectively for some influence (Ralph Nader's group, or the Tea Party Group for example).  Their basic principles begin as wholesome founding fathers  USA but they don't have enough actual power to do anything except throw a temporary obstruction into the machinery of government (albeit it corrupt) for a short time.  Power, once achieved, is rarely given up voluntarily.  One must ask, "Just who has the real power in our corrupted government, and for whom are they working??".  Is it really "we the people", our citizenry?       

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #142 

woody - I understand the stimulus money went to a lot of folks who eventually bought goods or services and the monies spent ended up as earnings, profits, or whatever in the hands of the job creators where it accumulates and stays after demand runs its course.  My point is at least this stimulus created economic activity that stopped job losses, helped individuals, and provided increased wealth for businesses.  A tax cut for these job creators will simply increase that accumulated money fund job creators have and do nothing to encourage demand.  One makes sense to me while the latter does not. In any event, the supposed job creators eventually end up with the actual dollars. 

woody

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Reply with quote  #143 
Many of the tax cuts to businesses was to encourage the purchase of manufacturing equipment and equipment retrofits, not just money for corporations to sit on. I have personal knowledge of this. A large percentage of stimulus money also went to funding shortfalls in state retirement funding, and to give to states for medicare and medicaid reimbursements. This is money handed out to bankrupt states. As far as community development, come on, this is another money handout. These handouts did nothing to stimulate the economy. Why not just pick out a selected group of constituents, and mail them checks for 200k each. It would have had a more positive effect than funding state shortfalls due to incompetent state management.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #144 

woody - I'm sure some money was used towards expansion just as I know most individuals gained products and services from the stimulus which was to their personal benefit.  My point was those $787 Billion dollars eventually trickled through the economy and settled somewhere.  Maybe business simply traded inventory for dollars.  Who knows?  I still say the vast majority of these dollars are now in the accounts of the wealthy and the businesses across this nation.  Giving these folks another tax cut will only grow their accounts further and provide little towards consumer demand and spurring the economy.  Instead, imo, an investment in our working people and necessary infrastructure projects seems a far better economic answer than a job creator tax cut.

woody

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Reply with quote  #145 
Then just hand out checks to constituents. Give everyone a million dollars. Everyone would be rich. It is the same thing Dewey. We are printing money and handing it out. This devalues the dollar. Do you propose more spending? How much is too much? The experts the President has surrounded himself with are inept at their jobs. We are teetering at the edge of the cliff again, and the answer always seems to be to print more money and hand it out.
__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #146 

Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
  We are teetering at the edge of the cliff again, and the answer always seems to be to print more money and hand it out.


Now you're going off your own cliff.  I posted the myth to that belief yesterday.  We are not printing money and handing it out.  We borrowed $787 billion and I'm asking where do you think most of those dollars are today and, if you agree with my conclusion that they're in the hands of job creators, why is the answer to put more into their hands?  It's better to fix the structures that must be repaired sometime anyway than to increase job creator bank accounts.  They have money and are waiting for demand.  Let's provide it for them.
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #147 

Ok Dewey, you've repeated it enough on this thread.  Now, give us the names of a couple of those "job creators" that are sitting on all this settled, trickling money.  Specifics, not Dewey's gut feeling please.

woody

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Reply with quote  #148 
Dewey, we incur debt, does that not negatively impact our currency? When we do QE, we retire securities by writing off the debt and interest through the treasury claiming it paid, thereby on paper devaluing existing currency. We didn't print it, we just claimed the debt paid. Keep promoting the infrastructure bank= shovel ready jobs campaign ad infomercials on MSNBC. You cannot spend your way out of this. You have to boost domestic manufacturing immediately, and dramatically cut government expenditures. It is the only way out, and we are running out of time. 
__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #149 

bhblue - I didn't think this fact was in dispute.  Read here.  Anyway, I was more curious where others felt most of this $787 Billion we borrowed ended up?  Middle class accts, businesses, wealthy, unions, or somewhere else?  Feel free to offer your opinion.  My point remains many job creators, as you guys call them, are flush with funds and another direction, other than tax cuts for the rich, is now in order.

woody

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Reply with quote  #150 
Dewey, companies with cash assets are sitting on them to pay taxes and payroll. They don't know what the economy or the President and his Senate will do next. It is their safety net, because unlike GM they won't get handed billions to operate in the red for the next few years. They are trying to stay solvent, and wait until this administration is voted out of office, and a pro business administration takes power. Then they will consider expansion, but not before the Socialist are out of power. Upsets you that they wont turn loose of the cash doesn't it? Maybe the Dems could just confiscate it. and give it to the purpose they see as most beneficial to their priorities.

Maxine will do it for you, no problem.


__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
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