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sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #121 
JG definitions are written by people that have opinion and biases as well.  You definition of liberal is especially interesting.  You are talking definitions.  I am talking people.  To me conservatives are much more open than liberals.  Conservatives like progress as long as it good for the welfare.  The Chik Fil A example is perfect.Freedom of sppeech and freedom of religion were two of the main reasons this country was founded.  But thats only approprite for the libs when it fits their ideology.  If thats the kind of change and progress you want you can have it.  If handing over money to people that are physically and mentally capable of doing work, but dont is your idea of good change you can have it.  The change "FORWARD" socialist logo is not good change for anyone except croney elites, govt and those on the dole.  The backbone of the country will get further fried.
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Susan
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #122 
Griz - Some people would look upon your "moral decline" as enlightenment (I see both sides of this as a matter of degree).  Some people would see your "government takes away freedoms" as Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the rest", noting that all government, by its very nature takes away individual freedom to some extent.  Perspective situation ::  I give a starving man a dollar to buy food.  Am I taking away his "freedom?".  Or am I heeding the moral code of many religions and aiding my less fortunate brother?
Personally, I would rather teach him to fish rather than give him a fish, but I can understand the giving of a fish too.  

I do agree that absolutes are the realm of conservatives, and I personally have some roots there, but I, like many or some, don't see the world of ideas written in cement.  If the second amendment gives us the right to "bear arms" does that include assault weapons?  I don't think that's what the founding fathers had in mind.  Some do, especially if it hurts business.

Most arguments that I read today in terms of liberal or conservative have a capitalistic root.  Has Capitalism become the former "democracy" that philosophically drove our great nation?  If so, we have traded a number of noble values for one, the profit motive.  It is a lot to think about, and there are numerous perspectives.  That theoretically is what voting is all about. We live and learn, and then we die.  Good luck, my fellow citizen.  Stick to your principles as long as they make sense to you. We are in this together you know !!        Frank


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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #123 
Joisey, I agree that the term "moral decline" is a subjective term. However it is no more subjective than the term "progress". Yet the term "progress" was used in your dictionary. Which leads me to believe that there is always a bias no matter who is doing the writing.
Therefore since an opinion, (progress) was inserted into the first definition, one could argue that it would be equally as accurate for that definition to read: "Liberal - Favorable to moral decline as in political or religious affairs". 

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #124 
Susan - Your definition of the "backbone of the country" is you.  Are you aware that there are numerous other citizens with numerous other perspectives of what is "right" for our nation?  Yet you maintain that you are open minded, moreso than liberals.  Frankly, to me that doesn't make sense.  Do it my way or you are wrong?  Is that your idea of open minded?  It is not my idea of open minded.  Perhaps that is where we part company philosophically. It would be good to understand that without rancor.  Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #125 
I believe that you could make a case for the "backbone of our country" being Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. And of course without freedom, those are less attainable.
I also believe that the founders put Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness in that particular order because Life sometimes comes at the expense of the other two. Yet liberals in the name of progress will reverse the order. For instance abortion in many cases is the Pursuit of Happiness at the expense of taking life.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #126 
Griz - My daughter is an enthusiastic cheerleader".  "Your daughter is a loudmouth".  There will always be an interpretation of words (semantics of intent) as we interpret them to our advantage in time and space to defend our perspectives. No character in the history of our nation has been so revered as the "rugged individual".  During the 1930s, deep Depression time, the "hero of rugged individualism" was the gangster (manifest in movies) because he took what he wanted which literally most people didn't have.  My point here is that values exist in time and space for particular reasons that are foist upon the "regular citizen". John "Duke" Wayne was the rugged individual (in movies) during wartime but he never saw combat, just became an icon of values, as Jimmy Cagney and George Raft did in the 30's.  Today it appears that most of our perspectives are born in economics, but some are in morality and some fewer in ethics.    
 
Much of what we ingest philosophically is foist upon us from birth. "The first platoon is the best platoon".  Some few live a live of sincere thought and make up their own minds about "stuff" in an attempt to understand.  Our labels do little except expose our views about "stuff"; those views are much if not mostly formulated  of that which our life experiences have created.  "The wealthy are not like the rest of us".   Ever wonder why some geographical areas of our nation are more liberal thinking or conservative thinking than others?       No, it's not because one is wrong and the other is right.     Frank
PS - "Cogito, ergo sum" - I think, therefore I am.   

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #127 
Joisey, this is where the conversation goes to moral absolutes or no moral absolutes. Is there a right and a wrong? If there is no right then nobody can be wrong. If there is no wrong, no moral absolutes, then I can do what ever I want...... 
I think we both know that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to moral absolutes. And quite honestly that is the biggest difference between liberals and conservatives. Thus the daily debate will continue on the floor of congress, in the media, at the water cooler, etc...
I will throw this out there, if there are no moral absolutes, then how can anyone say that the shooter in the Colorado theater was wrong? Just food for thought.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #128 
Griz - Are you aware that the philosophically given rights to life, liberty, and (originally) property (changed to "pursuit of happiness" because there was a real hassle about property and the right to vote) give the government the right to take them away if one in any way is not a good citizen.  For example, the concept of "life" allows for capital punishment (take away life).  The concept of liberty allows for incarceration of those who do not follow the rules (put citizens into rehabilitation centers - prisons), and property allows for eminent domain wherein the government can buy for the general good land owned by individuals or legal individuals at a rate deemed "fair" by the government (government must prove the "general good" reason for securing property).  Those "rights" bear a two edged sword, but in my opinion a necessary one.   Frank  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #129 
Griz - Why does your perspective reduce right and wrong to "moral absolutes"?  is there no difference among cheating on a test, stealing from a poor person, paying a prostitute for sex, and shooting and murdering 12 or so innocent persons in a theatre??  If "Thou shalt not kill" is an absolute, then how do you explain the Crusades, and the very concept of war or dueling?  I do understand that absolutes are easier to live under and do reduce personal intellectual responsibility for one's actions and certainly ones perspectives of societal morality and ethics.                                                        

I once had a very good friend who worked for a German chocolate company. He once had studied for the priesthood and had what one would have to consider a "conservative" view of morality.  He told me that it was very difficult to have two sets of values, one in business where he was expected to provide "escorts" for visiting businessmen from Europe, and his personal morality which forbade that.  What do you think?   Frank  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #130 
Charlie - You suspect too much.  For example, you presuppose that liberals are anti capitalistic.  Lots of liberal thinkers are capitalists to some degree on a spectrum.  That some liberals see humanistic negative holes in the views of some capitalists (Greed is good) is no reason to generalize from that specific and assume that liberals are anti-capitalistic. All Irishmen really don't have red hair.   
Frank

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #131 
Yes JG I am very aware people have different opinion on what would work better etc...  I am not going by my opinions, I am going by history and lessons learned.
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Susan
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #132 
"If "Thou shalt not kill" is an absolute,......"

Who said it was, Joisey?
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #133 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
I always feel comfortable expressing my liberal social views with conservative friends but never, ever feel comfortable expressing conservative views with liberal friends.


Funny, I have exactly the opposite perspective.  Who woulda thunk?  I have some very strong opinionated Conservative friends who can't believe I voted for Obama.  I rarely bring politics up with them and I rarely reply to their Obama bashing emails.  I once told you how I nearly got strangled at a Christmas party when an acquaintance didn't like my anti-Iraq stance.  In any event, forget about these personal stories and just check out UCS misc forum.  You've witnessed it for years.  The reaction and emotion I often face inside here is identical to what I see outside.  I'm uncaring and blind.  I'm for handouts and no self reliance.  I'm against freedoms and capitalism.  All nonsense.  You read, you decide if one side makes you more comfortable or seems more tolerant.  It's really not our place to try and characterize one side or the other in this manner.  I just couldn't let that anecdotal comment stand alone.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #134 
And, some people wanna say this country isn't divided???
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #135 
Joisey, I think that this is a very deep discussion that you and I could have, but unfortunately because I am in and out of my office so much, I don't think I could do my point of view any justice.
I do however like your challenging perspectives and would enjoy a non-combative back and forth where both of us are challenged intellectually.
Lets save it for another time when I can actually put a response together without being up against the clock.
Sometimes life get too busy. It doesn't take much to pop in and reply to the usual lib vs. conservative banter, but your debate would require and deserve a better more well thought out response.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #136 
Griz - Hey, whatta guy !!  Certainly I understand, being that I've been retired for 25 years and now have only doctor's appointments to worry about scheduling (and South Florida softball games).  I empathize with your trying to do a job in the office and finding time for intellectual challenges that have little or nothing to do with the job (when I was in educational administration we would invite in people from industry, and invariably their comment was that they couldn't believe my "availability" to those in my supervisory realm).  I'd love to buy you a beverage and dinner when you retire and continue this discussion which is on a very civil level (says a lot about you).  I'm 80 years old, so hurry up with that retirement.  Until then, it has been my pleasure, and I thank you for that.    Frank

PS - I am quite aware that the ideas we discuss affect you "young folk" more than we who have somehow survived and are now staring at eternity.  For me it's an intellectual exercise.  For you guys it's a reality that you must live.  I do wish you good fortune.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #137 
Susan - Please share with me some of that history and lessons learned that have led you to your political and societal perspectives.  I am very old but my education continues. Hurry while I'm still alert !     Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #138 
JG  I think you know the history of ou country and how it has excelled  for all the people compared to socialist countries. Our poor arent poor when you look at the rest of the world.  But we dont need to become greece which we are on the path to doing.
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Susan
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #139 
Lately I have been getting a lot of "there is a problem with your request" when I type a post, reply or otherwise, and it is frustrating amid a super discussion which is mutually respectful.   DAMN !!!!!  We people were doing so well and then the modern era had to go and intrude with all its technical rudeness !    Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #140 
Susan - Too general.  Can you be more specific? Don't you think there should be more to a great nation than economics?  Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #141 
Just understand that, thou shall not kill is not an absolute...You, wrongly, portrayed it to be....
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #142 
Bluedog - Just understand that I don't pay any attention to you and your personal interpretation of the bible.  Preach elsewhere where perhaps others will accept your personally described and hubris like  "power" of singular interpretation.  Frank
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #143 
Frank I realy am talking pretty much economics.  Canada is now better than us because they are going back to more capitalistic methods and less socialistic.  They dropped business taxes to 15 percent, decreased hand outs, opened up oil, etc... now they are doing better than we are.  Its not rocket science.  Its been proven over and over.  The more money govt takes the less businesses have to make jobs, buy goods and services etc... to build the economy.  Even europe is going in the direction of more capitalism because they have learned you cant afford  the welfare, retirement, handout state.  We arent learning from the actions of our own country or other countries.  
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Susan
fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #144 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
Uh-oh, another shot across the bow has been fired.  Jeff Bezos, the founder of Amazon, has donated $2.5 million in support of same sex marriage.  .


Bezos and amazona re in seattle washington and his donation went to help the same sex marriage get passed in his state of washington in november.

Bill Gates and Steven A. Ballmer of Microsoft each gave $100,000 to the referendum campaign, according to its officials. The battlefield in the state washington continues to get more people on each side throwing money at it.

And since this happened friday  today we will have msnbc shows applaud amazon and slap chick fill a while beck, rush and fox news applaud chick fill a and point to liberals telling them they can't complain when people protest or boycott amazon since tehy were the ones saying if a business supports an issue financially publically they deserve backlash. smh at this. The lines in the sand get bigger with each isue that a group turns from a grain of sand into a mountain.

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‎"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." -- Abraham Lincoln
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #145 
Susan - Thanks for the reply.  But doesn't history tell us that both "prime the pump" methods and "trickle down" methods have failed to stimulate economy but rather work to create a larger gap between our wealthy and our poor in our nation? Remember the era of the Robber Barons and the severe plight of the working classes?     Frank

PS - Now here's the rub in perspectives:  Do you believe that our federal government has an obligation (by philosophical rights created by the founding fathers) to make sure that all in our nation  have at least a minimal standard of living?  Do you believe that government should make sure that all citizens have at least minimal health care?  Do you believe that children born to poverty should be given aid to dependent children to insure that they eat every day?  Do you believe that those born into less fortunate circumstances deserve a hand up?  These are all questions that must be answered (national morality?) while economics is being discussed, not simply whether the stock market is doing well and corporations are flourishing according to their bottom lines.  Should we, as the greatest financial power on the planet (now arguable) , be comparing even one of our citizens to impoverished nations by noting their standard of living? 

If you answer even one yes to these questions, then what's the problem?  Corruption within the system is the problem, and I don't see any knights in shining armor politically who will create oversight to curb excesses and outright thievery.  By the way, don't you think that downsizing and outsourcing to increase the size of the profit motive have contributed heavily to current economic conditions in our nation?  I know all about the cry concerning corporate taxation compared to other nations, but if only the profit motive drives our national psyche, without any corporate value aimed at micro economics, the effects are bound to impact micro economics in a negative way and wealthy owners of industry will profit while the working classes will lose out.  Anyway, here we are and you folks will inherit a mess when I leave the planet.  Try to clean it up for my grandchildren, will you?   Noble ideas and belief in a system made my nation great, and I don't believe that that can be bought and sold or reduced to a profit value.

In case you are confused, I agree that other nations are going capitalist, and I am I firm believer in capitalism, but not laissez faire capitalism nor capitalism as a form of government.  I believe in democracy and representative republicanism as forms of government, and capitalism as an economic form.  Within government I believe there should be aspects of humanitarianism in a nation as great as ours that include aspects of socialism.  The only interface between government and corporate America  I see as viable is taxation of corporations and legislation having to do with government contracts and military contracts.  Other aspects should be societal and governed by national and state law.  Corporate America, I think, should have more noble values than simply a profit motive, although that should be the prime value in capitalism.  The United States of America, I think, should be an invisible partner in values in every corporate boardroom in our nation.                      

If our economic system has become our government, and in many ways it has, then the "Great Experiment" of our founding fathers has failed.  Geez, I sound like a conservative, except for the socialism part.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #146 
JG - an impressive and epic post.  But I take issue with the characterization that "prime the pump" and "trickle down" have had similar results.  Reagan's policies of lowering taxes (called trickle down by the left) was intended to spur production which is the true driver of the economy.  The result was superior economic growth as compared to this recovery.  That conclusion is supported by GDP growth numbers in both Reagan's and Obama's first few years in office.  "Priming the pump" throws money at consumers with the flawed idea that consumer activity will create demand and, therefore, create the need for production.  The problem is that putting more money into the system has the consequence of raising prices because there are too many dollars chasing relatively too few goods.  Those excess profits are then returned to the investors who have put their money into the companies that provide the best return on their investment.

Except for the impact of printing money, there is a finite supply of capital circulating throughout the economy and, as Susan points out, the more of it that is guided through government, the less there is seeking the best return on investment.  We all know that government neither creates economic activity nor provides returns on investment.  Austrian economics tells us, with historical evidence, that a free market economy, or capitalism, works best when unfettered by government intrusion.  That is because governments don't have a profit motive which is required for innovation and growth.  Dollars seeking return.  Keynesian economics, on the other hand, insists that government must step in periods of diminished economic growth with stimulus to spur the economy through consumption.  It doesn't work because consumption is a result of a strong economy, not the driver of it.  It's all about production.

The longer we go borrowing and monetizing our debt the more painful will be the inevitable correction.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #147 
"Preach elsewhere where perhaps others will accept......."

Joisey, I will no longer let you misrepresent the Bible.....Every time you do, you will hear from me....
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #148 
pabar - Isn't it true that the Reagan administration left the USA in heavy debt by way of their borrowing ala a credit card economy to create a feeling of "prosperity"?  Is it not true that Vice President Cheney said "Debt is good"?  Yes, but for whom is federal debt good????  Is it not true that George W Bush's administration ran a credit card borrowing scheme internationally to support war and federal aid to corporations which, after 8 years left the USA in an enormous debt?  I know this is over simplified, however.   Frank
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #149 
Bluedog - I cannot wait - and then I shall consult someone who is a bible scholar and much more reputable than you. By the way, in no way do I wish to represent myself as a biblical scholar, only a reader of some of it and the interpretations of others. Obviously, unlike you, I am not a zealot where the bible is concerned. On another note, I do not think that your credentials carry much weight nor validity in bible interpretation. I am amazed by your hubris.      Frank
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #150 

According to OMB, from 1981 to 1988, total deficits were 1.3 billion in today's dollars and they averaged 4.2% of annual gdp.  From 2009 to 2011, total deficits were 4.0 billion in today's dollars averaging 9.3% of annual gdp.  1.3 billion in deficits in 8 years vs. 4.0 in 3 years, both using today's dollars.  No comparison.  Reagan achieved GDP growth through a mixture of tax savings and spending.  Obama is all tax increases and spending.

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