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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #91 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
Dewey - again, this is a free speech issue. 


pabar61 - Agreed.  Announcing your support for keeping same sex marriage illegal and/or contributing to organizations working feverishly to do the same, is the right of the CEO, not unlike the actions of Ms. Fonda being equally protected.  Secondly, if you saw your individual rights being trampled on, would it matter to you how many millions of Americans were in favor of your particular discrimination?
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #92 
Quote:
If you protest a business because of their views and whom they support then you will protest many companies to be true to your convictions. If you are offended chick fill A supports traditional marriage you probably don't drink coke products, nor use ibm, don't use bayer asperin, don't wear certain clothes because several companies had their clothes done in factories in germany during ww2 and they were made by slave labor from rounded up slavs and jewish peoples. You don't support alabama because of the universities national part in segregation. You don't eat girl scout cookies because the girl scouts are partnered with planned parenthood. Some of our luxury products and items come from overseas child labor and sweat shops.



Quote:
The owners of OPEC do not support same sex marriage. Hell they don't support same sex anything. Their penalties are far worse than anything done over here too. Anyone boycotting their gas?

Didn't think so.

Hypocrites


Let me add pabar because sometimes I don't want to clutter up a thread with a bunch of

Quote:
A constant refrain from the left on such issues.  "You do it too".  Look, the left has all the main and not-so-main media outlets at their disposal - ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, PBS, NYT, LA Times, Washington Post, the majority of college faculty, and Hollywood.  The right has FoxNews and talk radio.  We hardly have the ability to create the hysteria that the left does. 

The hypocrisy in this case is stunning.  Rahm Emanuel says he will try to ban Chick-Fil-A from building stores in Chicago because its CEO says he supports traditional marriage.  Meanwhile, Emanuel embraces Farrakhan, a known anti-Semite and leader of the Nation of Islam.  And what group is specifically hated by Muslims besides Jews and Christians? Gays.



From fhoenix and airborne, they explained it as I see it.  Hope that suffices, cause I am about to be out of here and go practice for the 2016 Olympic bowling team.

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #93 
kiir - If I pick up a 7-10, it will be an exacta here on TVG.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #94 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
keepinitreal -

PS:  You should read fhoenix more carefully as he has shared his profession many times.  Yes, he is very thoughful, well spoken, and respectful in what he writes.


I do the best I can Dewster,

I am preparing a fall garden, readying for a contract expiration at work, watching the Olympics, I cook, I do yard work, I read from different sources, dabbling in home, social and disaster preparedness and still try and keep up with all the geniuses on this forum.

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #95 
Jane Fonda is directly responsible for the murder and torture of several of our POWs in Vietnam.  My issue with her is not one of free speech. 

It doesn't matter how many millions support an issue but you are the one who first brought up the issue of how millions would find the CEO's comments offensive.  It's disingenuous to not point out that there are those on the other side as well.  I would argue their numbers are greater and that their opinions should be considered as well.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #96 
I really hate the way people people always paint the right as doing the exact same things as the left.  No they dont.  The right cant get away with anything compared to the left because the media calls them out whether they deserve it or not.  It politically correct to say the right does it.  I am tired of the BS?  The right is nothing like the left, but the left wants people to think that.  It nullifies lots of arguments.  When people on the right do things wrong they usually get kicked out of office.  How many people on the left are still in office after breaking the law multiple times etc...  Pelosi was gonna clean house, what a joke.  
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Susan
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #97 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
  CNN is not a legitimate "news" organization.  Nor is ABC or the others in the so-called mainstream media.



pabar61 says, "Dewey, it's disingenuous to not point out there are those on the other side as well."

pabar61- You failed to mention any so called "right leaning" media as being illegitimate.  Does that mean you are disingenuous.  C'mon pabar61, you make your points, I'll make mine, and we need not worry about doing each others job for them.  The disingenuous label is so yesterday, long before you were a regular poster here in misc.  Moving on, the opinions of both sides are getting out there.  I thought we were discussing the appropriateness of such opinions.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #98 
Susan - I do understand the frustration of both you and pabar61 given your perspectives.  It must be totally frustrating politically and socially when one views everything in society that is left of Sean Hannity as "the flaming liberal left".     Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
10er

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Reply with quote  #99 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Susan - I do understand the frustration of both you and pabar61 given your perspectives.  It must be totally frustrating politically and socially when one views everything in society that is left of Sean Hannity as "the flaming liberal left".     Frank
Don't know for sure, but I would bet that a majority of the conservatives & independents that post in misc.don't watch Hannity at all or with any regularity. Would like to hear what they say about it.
By the way Rosanne Barr said anyone who eats at Chic-Fil-A she hopes gets cancer & I see Linsey Lohan, Miley Cyrus & Kim Kardashian all came out in support of the 8/3 demo against them....with those 4 in support, I might have to go myself.

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big 10-#1
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #100 
JG you can laugh and say your center all you want.  It doesnt bother me.  I know you are left and so do alot of people on this site in spite of what you say.  Another game the libs like to play with the media is to keep the center line moving left which they have succeeded at for a while now, but now that its moving right, they dont like it. And they are pulling out all the stops trying to make sure they keep their guy in power and stir up their base with made up scenarios like the Chik Fil A CEO.  They are showing truly their dislike for capitalism and business. 
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Susan
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #101 
Susan - Do you really believe that I am left of center on every subject?  You are wrong again.  As for your perception of my (left leaning??) dislike of capitalism, I, before retiring from it, was president and CEO of my own capitalistic corporation. Loved the system.  Surprise !!!  I also have been a Senior Visitor as a social worker and a 32 year teacher and coach of football, basketball, baseball, and softball at the high school level, high school administrator, and a part time lecturer at university in the area of English Literature as well as a laborer, motel manager, semi professional athlete, soldier in wartime, salesman, husband, father, and many other part time jobs (gotta put food on the table and a roof over the family's heads).  My perspectives are drawn from many different experiences and data analyses and include very pro capitalistic aspects as well as several humanistic governmental aspects which the far right continues to refer to as Socialism.  You and I agree on two aspects of government - 1.  government is too big and 2.  government is very corrupted.   I see the solving of the latter as the solution to the former. I guess that's about everything.  I respect your loyalty to your cause, but disagree with your (too constant in my opinion) perspective on ALL matters.
Have a great evening !!  Thank you for your posts, always food for thought.     Frank  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #102 
Joisey - Can't you just allow us to use libby libby libby on your label label label?  ;-)
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #103 
Dewey - I don't believe that I referred to any of the left-leaning media as illegitimate so not sure what that's about.

As for disingenuous being so yesterday, my opinion is that it's still relevant so I may bring it up again.

It's funny how we seem to go off topic and discuss each other's perspectives and the worthiness of them.

I'll return to the subject at hand.  My opinion is that Emanuel and the mayor of Boston may want to restrict Chick-Fil-As in their cities but there is no legal basis for them to do so.  I don't like the hypocrisy of going after the religious right but taking a hands off approach to Muslims when both have the same opinion on the matter - that being gay marriage..
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #104 

It's quite clear who is left and who is right and that's all good.  If we were all on one side, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.  But if we were all on the right side, then it would be all right with me.

BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #105 
I am tired of the BS?

The feeling is mutual.

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Bill Smith
West Bay Nuggets
NorCal Women's Fastpitch Summer League
info: nuggetsoftball@aol.com

Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #106 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
Dewey - I don't believe that I referred to any of the left-leaning media as illegitimate so not sure what that's about.

It's funny how we seem to go off topic and discuss each other's perspectives and the worthiness of them.



What does this mean... 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
  CNN is not a legitimate "news" organization.  Nor is ABC or the others in the so-called mainstream media.



pabar61 - As for going off topic regarding our perspectives, I do not see where I called you disingenuous until you chose to place that label on me.  Did I question the worthiness of your opinion?  Outside of calling the President a clown or unfairly saying Progressives hate America, I do my best to avoid characterizing if the opinions of others are genuine.  I haven't responded to the mayors because they're entitled to their opinions too while also following the laws of our land.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #107 
Susan - I asked the person who knows me best (married to her for 54 years) and has at least three figures in her IQ whether she thought I was more liberal or conservative, and she immediately said, "More liberal". I then asked her if I have conservative viewpoints in some areas, and she rattled off more than I could keep up with in five minutes. Therein lies the problem to me of pigeon holing me.  I asked her what she considered more liberal in me, and then what more conservative, and I got both answers quickly.  None surprised me.   Here they are, and remember that these are her ideas and not mine, but she is astute and has known me for a long time.

"In general I would say that you are liberal in society because you don't automatically judge people if they are different from you.  You are tolerant and accepting of the ideas of others which you listen to, analyze, and then decide whether to make them part of your values system or not.  You are less judgmental than most people.  You treat people as individuals rather than as members of groups.  You are a Secular Humanist and don't belong to any religion, but respect the ideas of goodness in all religions.  You are not anti gay, but your conservative part thinks that biologically gay coupling doesn't make sense. Socially it makes sense to you and is fine with you. Because you don't regard marriage as a sacrament, you don't really care one way or the other about gay marriage except as a financial joining.  You are pro abortion but only up to the second month of pregnancy and definitely think it's all right in circumstances of rape or biological disaster".

"You are conservative about a soldier's role in war, your role as a father and especially the provider role, your very strong work ethic, self pride in work, self respect earned.  You have a very strong personal revenge ethic.  You are conservative about law enforcement
and think that the court system is too liberal and often punishes the victim and does not punish the defendant enough.  You think that homosexuals are just people like everyone else, but that their sexuality is not normal biologically.  You are split on gun control but think that people should be allowed to defend their own abodes, just not with assault rifles.  You have an extremely strong feeling about corruption in government and especially misuse of social services.
You think that government is much too big, wastes taxpayers' money and is very corrupted because of a lack of effective oversight or maybe a lack of any oversight".  

At this time I said, "Ok, that's enough and thank you".  Then I asked her why she thought I was primarily liberal and she answered, "Conservatives tend to be closed to change, and you are open to change.  In addition, you seem to be always looking for answers, and conservatives take pride in already having them.  You are more tolerant than most conservatives".  She doesn't inhabit UCS.

Now I think that's a pretty good description.  I consider myself a moderate in most areas, and liberal in some and conservative in others, and a mixture in others.  Long ago I learned that we all view "truth" through a frame of reference that we have developed throughout our years.   So it goes.  Thanks for "listening" Susan.   




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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #108 
Frank - Extremely well put by your lovely wife.  I suspect she actually said you are pro choice but, all in all, it's a great description with no need to apply one and only one label all wrapped in a pretty bow.  Excellent!
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #109 
JG I would respectfull never argue about your wifes perception of you.  However, respectfully I might have a difference of opinion with her perception of conservatives, per your report.  Conservatives a not opposed to change and dont know all the answers.  I believe this is basically what the other side wants people to believe of conservatives.  Our country has literally been going left and changing hugely for the past 60 yrs. Conservatives are stepping up to the plate now because they respect our country and  how good it has been for the people of this country and the world!  Conservatives understand that if Obama is re-elected we will probably never get back to a real capitalistic society with the freedom and situations that our founders intended.  The MINORITY that works will pay for the majority thats sucks from the govt and empowers those in the govt.  

Emanual and CHICAGO

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Susan
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #110 
Sorry, my tablet is a pain sometimes.  

Emanual and Chicago are a perfect example that liberal change has done nothing for the poor but enslave them in govt handouts.If somebody is gonna give you something for nothing why should I go to work.  Thats why even after throwing so much money into poverty we are now at record levels once again. Especially with Obama gutting welfare reform illegally now too.  

Getting back to the point of the thread, the media and liberals have been trying to shape peoples perception of conservatives for years to empower themselves and their cronies. The internet, talk radio, and Fox have enabled communication to show that the media is biased and not accurate about what they are portraying.  Chik Fil A is a perfect example of how the media is manipulating a simple statement to mean the guy is anti gay.    I agree totally with pabar61 in that Ferrakan is probably more anti alot of things but he is welcomed into Chicago with no questions asked.  Its disgusting.Ferrakan lives off the victimizationof his own but Chik Fil A creates jobs, builds schools and hospitals etc... and he gets manipulated and crucified.  People are tired of the BS and seeing what made this country exceptional being destroyed by alot of the liberals.

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Susan
POV

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Reply with quote  #111 
Do people ever get paranoid that others are plotting to make them happy?

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #112 
Susan - From my dictionary:                                                    

"Conservative - disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc.or to restore traditional ones and to limit change".  Maybe our problem is one of semantics, not politics.    

"Liberal - Favorable to progress or reform as in political or religious affairs".
"Liberalism - a political and social philosophy advocating individual freedom, representative forms of government,progress and reform,
and protection of civil liberties".  

"If I were building a wall, I'd like to know what I was walling in and walling out" - Robert Frost
Frank

PS - It's always good to agree on terms before beginning an intelligent discussion so that everyone is singing from the same sheet of music.  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #113 
Dewey - I stand corrected.  I did say that those organizations lacked legitimacy.  I do believe it.  Those media that tend to lean right are a mixed bag.  WSJ I believe to be legitimate.  Most of talk radio not so much.  FoxNews is legit because they do make an effort to be inclusive.  As an example, Juan Williams will guest host on FoxNews shows.

Back to a tangent of the original topic.  I am a supporter of civil unions and a believer that two people who love each other should all have the same rights regardless of gender.  I believe that if that union is between two people of the same gender, calling it something other than "marriage" does not, or should not, deny them of any rights that traditional married couples have.

Back to the topic.  The CEO of Chick-Fil-A should be able to answer a question honestly without fear that the corporation, of which he is the CEO, will be threatened by politicians because of his views.  Similarly, if gay rights activists want to stage a kiss-in on the sidewalk in front of Chick-Fil-A, they should be able to as long as they do not disrupt or threaten the business or those wanting to patronize that business.

I will support Chick-Fil-A because I support free speech, not because of my views on gay rights or gay marriage.
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #114 
is " Freedom of speach " not a law in America.???????
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #115 

Article the third [Amendment I]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #116 
pabar - Thanks.  I only used your example to point out we make arguments on behalf of our position and not on behalf of our opponent's position.  I don't see that as being disingenuous and I found it important to note you practice similar.  I've been called enough names by enough members over the last three plus years that I tend to object when I'm personally challenged with regards to being civil or "genuine".  I'll point out the strengths of Obama but it's unlikely I'll point out the strengths of Romney.  I'll leave that to your side.  What I will try hard not to do is disrespect the Governor.  That may be tough because some believe noting his changes in position over the years or questioning his bank accounts overseas is disrespectful.  I don't.  Suggesting he doesn't care about this Country would be a different thing altogether.  Finally, with regards to your Mayors, they're accountable to the voters and accountable to our laws.  Beyond that, I respect your right to be offended by how they have spoken in public regarding this controversy.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #117 
I actually am not offended by what they have said.  I am offended by the actions they propose or have threatened to take in this issue.  I take them at their word that they will try to do what they have proposed.  I would respect them more if they said that they personally do not plan on supporting Chick-Fil-A.
fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #118 
I support chick Fill A because the company, it's employees, and every location serve any and everyone. No discrimination. A gay couple is welcome and will be served, atheist served, muslims served, etc.
Everybody is treated the same and is welcome.

The company, just like coke , ford, etc. do not publically support any cause but their owners did and do. Every business owner uses their earnings from their companies and investments to support causes they believe in.

The irony in this is that chick fill A does not fund any group....Chick-fil-A's WinShape Foundation, which was created by Chick-fil-A founder and chairman S. Truett Cathy in 1984 does.

It has ministires, gives scholarships, has foster homes and christian camps in america and internationally. Berry college is supported by cathy and they give scholarships to kids and send them there (it's in georgia where they are from). Teaching christian values.
The WinShape foundation supports many conservative groups like including Eagle Forum, Focus on the Family, Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Family Research Council, Exodus International and the Marriage & Family Legacy Fund .

So protest the WinShape group. They are the ones's donating the money.

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‎"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." -- Abraham Lincoln
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #119 
Joisey, there are several problems with your definitions on liberal and liberalism.
First of all, what liberals consider "progress" most people consider a moral decline.
There is also a contradiction in the definition when you say that liberalism advocates individual freedom and protection of civil liberties. The truth is that liberalism is wanting to reduce our freedoms and liberties by forcing us to buy health insurance, trying to take away gun rights, limiting the size of our soft drinks, limiting free speech (chick-fil-a),confiscating more of our hard earned money, etc... 
Do you think that creating a nanny state is advocating individual freedom?
Oh and what about the freedom and civil liberty of the unborn child?

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #120 
Griz - Take it up with Random House - Webster's College Dictionary, not me. Your redefinitions merely demonstrate your moral preferences, and that's fine as long as they are defined as such.  For example "most people" is a word set used to convince when actually the writer doesn't know "most people" nor what they think, but assumes that their personal perspective is the "right" perspective.  We all do it when trying to make our perspective to be the "right" one convincingly. After all, who can deny the "rightness" of "most people"???  Reminds me of my mother's favorite validity source, "they" as in "They say it is like that".      Frank

From "Through the Looking Glass" (I think it was Humpty Dumpty but might have been the Mad Hatter because I am very old and forgetful) - "Words, why words mean what I want them to mean".    Stay out  of the rabbit hole when engaging in intelligent discourse !!  

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
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