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ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverInBlue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverInBlue
Bush's warrant less wiretapping targeted suspicious individuals, this NSA activity targets all Americans (who use Verizon, as we know so far) and there's a big difference between the two.


FIB - The difference is the NSA got a court order while Bush did it secretly without court approval.  Big difference.  Secondly, there is no way of knowing the scope of the Bush Administration, or to claim you know how far they went in their surveillance programs, because that classified information was not leaked like this classified information apparently was.  You can't begin to know for certain.
The NSA did not get a court order. You're right, you don't know enough about this to comment intelligently.


FIB - OK, I've got some time so I'll try to explain it to the readers. 

We have a FISA Court, setup in 1978, that is supposed to oversee the Government's request for surveillance warrants.  Despite what ForeverInBlue is trying to suggest, the NSA, in this particular incident, did receive the necessary court order.  When President Bush did his wiretapping, he determined he need not run it by the FISA court and determined he had the Executive power to do so.  Not sure why FIB suggested I didn't know what I was talking about.


The reason I said you don't know enough to comment is
A) you said so yourself earlier in the thread
B) you said the NSA got a court order

Pretty sure the NSA's charter specifically disallows surveillance in the United States. They used the FBI to work around the intent of the law.

Now you know.

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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #32 
FIB - Not sure I get your point but the fact remains.  There was a FISA court order authorizing the surveillance program.  In fact, I think it was a copy of this order that leaked to the UK Guardian.  President Bush chose not to get FISA authorization for his wiretap program.  I thought this was an important distinction to make, so I made it.  Can't really tell if you're still denying a court order was issued.

The American people have every right to support or object to this program.  It's fair game.  Many Senators are lining up on both sides already.  I'll listen to debate over the next few weeks to see where I come down.  Many of these Senators supporting this program are Republicans.  This should be a non-political debate as to how far we take our domestic surveillance actions.  I'm afraid many will try and make it into another anti-Obama campaign.  Do ya think.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #33 
White House tweet: every kid deserves access to high speed Internet.

With a photo of Obama captioned...

"in a country where we expect free wifi with our coffee, Shouldn't we have it in our schools?" - Obama

Sure, so the government can track what our teachers are teaching, and send the IRS after anyone with beliefs that differ from the Obama / Alinsky play book.

Great idea, if you like Stalin.

Welcome to Obamagrad.

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ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #34 
Add AT&T and Sprint to the phone data collective run by the Obama administration.

Assume you all know by now that user accounts on Facebook, Yahoo, Google, Skype, Gmail, Hotmail, and Apple are all being freely accessed by the government as well. Every site you visit, every comment you make, every email you write, every keystroke - the government has it, thanks to the "Prism" program, exposed today by both WaPo and The Guardian

Some of the companies are denying knowledge, of course. The First Rule of Prism is "there is no Prism."

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mikec

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Reply with quote  #35 
OK, Bush was a loser, and did some stupid things.  Happy now?

Now - are willing to admit that Obama is a loser, and is doing a lot of stupid things?

Is spying on internet usage, in a random manner, the same as "Bush wiretaps"?  Is spying on phone calls of half of America the same thing?
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #36 
Welcome to the Bush-Obama White House, they're spying on us.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/welcome-to-the-bush-obama-white-house-they-re-spying-on-us-20130606?mrefid=site_search

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ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #37 
Remember a few months back when crazy old Maxine Waters said Obama had a secret database on everyone?

Maybe she's not so crazy after all.


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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec
OK, Bush was a loser, and did some stupid things.  Happy now?

Now - are willing to admit that Obama is a loser, and is doing a lot of stupid things?



Nope.  Now please tell me what stupid things you think Obama did.  If you are talking about today's NSA surveillance controversy, a lot of very important people on both sides of the political aisle are claiming it was necessary to keep our citizens safe.  I'll listen over the next few weeks to see if I agree.  Beyond that, I have no idea what I should be considering as stupid things Obama has done.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #39 
NSA Whistleblower -


Loomis said NSA Director Keith Alexander and Attorney General Eric Holder have not been truthful in their congressional testimony about the government’s domestic surveillance program. “People are lying to Congress, and they need to be fired,” Loomis said. “Alexander needs to be fired. Eric Holder needs to be fired. They need to have criminal charges filed against them for committing perjury.”

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3399258?utm_hp_ref=tw&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008

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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #40 
I've just finished watching several political cable shows and it's been interesting watching a significant number of Republicans who, for the most part support this NSA program, find themselves searching for ways to turn this it against President Obama.  Clearly, politics is hard to avoid.  In any event, it's a Republican dance like I've never seen before and one Kellie Pickler would be extremely proud of, (that was for you woody).

President Bush chose to listen in on American phone calls overseas while refusing to run it by the FISA court for approval.  President Obama took the appropriate steps to obtain approval from the FISA court in order to collect data that may be advantageous in saving American lives.  I repeat, President Obama did not seek authorization to listen in to phone calls but he did take the necessary steps to obtain authorization for collecting this data.  ForeverInBlue made a huge mistake by unequivocally stating President Obama, more specifically the NSA, did not obtain court approval.  He was wrong and, for the life of me, I don't know why he won't admit he was mistaken.

Debating the worthiness of collecting data on phone calls made in America is one worth having but, it would seem to me, if we can save American lives by backtracking phone calls connected to terrorist activities, it may be worthy of consideration.  In any event, a Senator Obama objecting to a Government listening in to phone calls made by Americans, without authorization, versus an Obama supporting collecting data regarding which numbers have been connected to others, makes for a far different discussion.  In any event, it's an appropriate American debate to have about how deep we want to go in this fight against terrorism and should not be a debate about the credibility of our current President.  Unfortunately, the UCS forum is more about Obama bashing than it is about the welfare of this Country.

masare

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Reply with quote  #41 
Dewey there is a major stumbling block to these folks who are arguing with your defense of president Obama...the truth...they hate to hear it! Everything that they don't like about government is his fault...because ...they will never get over the fact that...HE WON THE ELECTION! Bam!
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by masare
Dewey there is a major stumbling block to these folks who are arguing with your defense of president Obama...the truth...they hate to hear it! Everything that they don't like about government is his fault...because ...they will never get over the fact that...HE WON THE ELECTION! Bam!


he won the election and still can't get anything done because he can't work with congress.  What has he accomplished in his first 100+ days of his 2nd term?  How is gun control going, how about immigration reform? got anywhere with that?
masare answer the questions without getting barney fife involved in your work?  What has he accomplished and what do you think his legacy will be overall?  This should be interesting, you and dewey are the only 2 that know 'the truth' please share your truth with us

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ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #43 
The Huffington Post front page has a photo of GEORGE W. OBAMA

http://www.businessinsider.com/huffington-post-george-w-obama-front-page-2013-6

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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #44 
NSA, FBI secretly mining data from Internet firms...

'THEY QUITE LITERALLY CAN WATCH YOUR IDEAS AS YOU TYPE'...


MICROSOFTYAHOOGOOGLEYOUTUBEFACEBOOKSKYPEAPPLE...

Top-secret PRISM program...

DEM TALKING POINT: IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!

Obama stays silent; leaves comment to deputy press secretary...

US intelligence chief denounces info 'leak'...

NYT: Obama has lost all credibility...

Paper 'quietly changes published editorial to make less damning'...

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #45 
Charlie - You are correct.  We now have a system corrupted beyond repair and in a state of stagnation, except that it's not one person's fault - FUBAR through greed and Party warfare.  Our system, originated with noble ideals, is now a $ick $ystem composed of and controlled by money and Party power interests.  Those who call for smaller government are absolutely correct in every sense of that.  However, they cry in a wilderness of ignorance and personal greed. I don't see any power group strong enough to change all that for the better. The only alternative, therefore, is "Go along to get along" and gain catharsis on threads like this one.    Sad !!    Frank

PS - Coach - Obviously you are correct.  Now, who will bell the cat?  

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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #46 
masare - You're correct.  It will be interesting to see the direction this forum takes if and when Hillary Clinton or some other Democrat wins in 2016.
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #47 
Dewey, what you mean IF OR WHEN
she will be elected since there are more people like you that will vote her in.
mikec

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Reply with quote  #48 
I think Masare, et al, can't take the Truth that Republicans won back the House, because the country wanted a check on Obama's unfettered power.  Then, they kept control of it, even as Obama was winning his second term.

So, I'll ask again, since it was never answered:

The current Republican majority in the House is a reaction to Democrats in the House rubber stamping everything the President wanted.  So, since they were sent there to provide a check on Obama, are they supposed to lay down and rubber stamp everything he sends along?

Why didn't the Democrats hold the House? 

That, my friends, is the truth.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #49 
It's generally accepted that the Party in power loses House seats in the midterm elections.  Now why do you think the GOP failed to win the Presidential election?  The general public?

As for the role of a GOP House, there's no problem with how they want to vote.  However, it is a problem that they decided to use debt limit as a political hostage.  As for the Senate, it is a problem they decided to use filibuster for almost everything.  It is a problem they won't let Judicial appointments be voted upon.  There are a lot of things being done differently today than years past. 
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #50 
Google and Facebook both denied their complicity in the PRISM spying program.

Here are the statements from Larry Page (Google) and Mark Zuckerburg (Facebook), with the striking similarities in bold. Leaves me wondering where they got their talking points.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mv06t60fV9YclwHzFmDOEk2wGGBj-jd5od7cS-I-d6E/mobilebasic?pli=1

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sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #51 
Yes dewey different things are being done because the extremists dems that have taken over your party are basically fascists and you are clueless.
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Susan
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #52 
Vast Data Trove...
Billions of Phone Calls...
Justice Dept Fights Release of Court Opinion Finding Unconstitutional Surveillance...
USA spends $80 billion year on secret information gathering...
Postal service photographs front and back of EVERY piece of mail it processes...


<! MAIN HEADLINE>
OBAMA ORDERED PLANS FOR CYBERATTACKS

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #53 
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/justice-department-electronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion


"Justice Department Fights Release of Secret Court Opinion Finding Unconstitutional Surveillance"
"Government lawyers are trying to keep buried a classified court finding that a domestic spying program went too far."

Really interesting read on how the DoJ is trying to bury a FISA court ruling, and the Catch-22 the Obama administration has devised to thwart its release.


This isn't the Bush administration doing this. This isn't 2006.

This is Obama, now, trying to hide the truth.

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ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #54 
NSA WHISTLEBLOWER: THE GOVERNMENT IS STILL TELLING YOU AN ‘OUTRIGHT LIE’ ABOUT ITS SPYING PROGRAMS


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/07/this-is-how-totalitarian-states-start-nsa-whistleblowers-dire-assessment-of-what-prism-means-for-america

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ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #55 
Obama just can't help himself when it comes to telling the truth. He seems wholly unable to stop lying.

Here, a Dem Congressman disputes Obama's claim that "everyone in Congress" was fully briefed about the government programs collecting data.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3028761/posts

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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverInBlue
This is Obama, now, trying to hide the truth.


= Liar

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #57 
Imagine if Obama continued this NSA surveillance program, begun by President Bush, and the public found out about it.  (They just did.)

Imagine if Obama had ended this NSA surveillance program, begun by President Bush, and we were hit by another terrorist attack.  (It's not easy being the President.)

Timeline

Edit:  Earlier I asked members to name one Obama policy put into effect that President Clinton would not have done himself.  I didn't get any answers but this issue could be used as one.  I'm not certain President Clinton would have continued this NSA surveillance program started by President Bush.  I could be wrong but this seems more a Republican idea.  We've known for some time that Obama is strong on defense but I'm certain many Democrats will think he has gone a bit too far by authorizing the continued use of this program.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #58 
Yeah, that "strong on defense" is hilarious. "We" know no such thing.
But that of course is another topic, (see how that works? Lol) not to be confused with the topic of this thread - Obama's hypocrisy in expanding beyond recognition the massive surveillance of innocent Americans.

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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #59 
There's only one topic in all these threads..."Obama/Progressives bad".
mikec

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Reply with quote  #60 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
There's only one topic in all these threads..."Obama/Progressives bad".


Obama - yes
Progressives - not necessarily
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