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fhoenix

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California’s latest law bans football players from engaging in full-contact off-season practices at middle schools and high schools around the state.

The law, signed by Gov. Jerry Brown earlier this week, also bans the schools from holding any full-contact practices that exceed 90 minutes per day, and restricts the number of full-contact practices that teams can hold during the season to two per week, the Los Angeles Times reported.

“AB 2127’s practice guidelines will reassure parents that their kids can learn football safety through three hours of full-contact practice … to maximize conditioning and skill development while minimizing concussion risk,” said Assemblyman Ken Cooley, the sponsor of the bill, in the Los Angeles Times.

Coaches, however, see some problems with the law.

“In the summer, we do need to have full-contact,” said Roosevelt High School head coach Javier Cid, in the newspaper. “That’s a very important part of our summer practice. That’s how we determine who our starters will be.”

Meanwhile, some say the ban is an overstepping of lawmakers’ bounds.

“I expect high school coaches to use common sense,” said Sen. Joel Anderson, who voted against the measure. “I expect them to be professional. I expect them to look at and understand their athletes and I expect them to protect their athletes to the best of their ability.”

Mr. Cooley, however, said the ban isn’t really different from what 19 other states already have in place.

...................
The legislation in California, which was supported by the American Academy of Neurology, the Brain Injury Association of California and the California Interscholastic Federation, goes into effect Jan 1 2015 and applies to public, private and charter schools.


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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #2 
The wussification of America continues from the far left (California being the far left of usa).


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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoenix
The wussification of America continues from the far left (California being the far left of usa).



Agreed. They might as well just go ahead and eliminate tackling and play flag football. It'll happen

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LMUfan

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My daughter is a doctor that specializes in sports medicine.  Her office is directly across the street from Westlake High School, home of one the best football programs in the nation.  The team has spent many years in the top 10 rankings in the country.   Just 4 tenths of a mile from Westlake is Oaks Christian High School, another school that is a perennial top team in the country.  You can literally see the lights of one football field from the other. Many pro football players start their career at Westlake or Oaks Christian.  Football is a big deal here.  

My daughter sees, first hand, the effects of concussions and what it does to players.  Their office has patients that have played football for many years, guys like Clay Matthews and Mike Seidman.  Not only does she see the effect of concussions first hand, but she's experienced many concussions herself, most of them by hitting her head on the floor in basketball.  Concussions are dangerous, very dangerous, and anything that can be done to reduce them is a good thing. 

What you jokingly call wussification is, in fact, dramatically improving the quality of life for many people that would otherwise live a miserable life with the effects of concussions.  So, while you use bravado and claim you'll stop watching the sport if they wussify it any further, I say bravo and good riddance, we won't miss you.
keepinitreal

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LMUfan that sounded pretty much like bravado right there. Will you come back in a month or two and delete that post like you did hundreds of your other posts on this forum after 2nd thoughts? Just wondering how committed you are to what you author.
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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #6 
Why don't they just ban football if there is so much damage potential to the player? This will not eliminate concussions. Why play a sport that is harmful to the children?
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
LMUfan

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepinitreal
Why don't they just ban football if there is so much damage potential to the player? This will not eliminate concussions. Why play a sport that is harmful to the children?


I wouldn't be surprised if many schools will eliminate football in the future.  The problem with a lot of high school sports is that the head coach is often a part time coach that gets a stipend of a few thousand per year.  That may be OK for softball or track but in football, where many damages occur during practice, it's not a good thing.  This isn't the case in many of the larger programs but California has over a thousand high schools so there are a lot of little schools with part time coaches.  These part time coaches often don't know what they're doing and just can't be trusted.  My daughter had a part time softball coach and he was an idiot.  Fortunately he didn't cause any physical damage like a football coach can.
dinky20

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Reply with quote  #8 
every year we read about kids dying during summer football practice, usually from already existing medical issues and the heat, but maybe this will help. Back when my daughter was in school, (less than 10 years ago),  here is something I noticed. You could look at the baseball team, and there wasn't 1 poor or non white kid out there. You could look at the football team, and see the exact opposite...it was filled with poor kids and you could count the white kids on 1 hand. Baseball, (like softball), is  expensive and the years of training is what gets your kid on the team. Football is the 1 sport where a kid, with no money or experience, can walk into jr high, and have a real chance of making a team. The athletic director here, made a high school rule that if a kid played baseball, he had to go out for football, or he couldn't play baseball. Not fair, (and probably not legal), but this is Texas and the AD can pretty much do what he wants.  He got the kids on his team who had been playing organized baseball their whole lives. It wasn't football, but he understood the importance of any 'experience', and his team went to the state championship 2 years in a row. Really, he only wound up with a few that made an impact, but it was the difference maker.  Idk what I'm trying to say, except some kids want to be on a team so bad, that their parents put up with a lot more than other parents would, so somebody needs to be looking out for them and their safety... because otherwise, I think some kids would do anything asked of them, even if that meant dropping dead from the heat. 
fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #9 
I am a paramedic. I served as a corpsman. I played college sports. I am the person posting here and I am posting my personal opinion based on my personal experiences.
We all have family and friends who can speak on this on both sides. My daughter likes the new rules as she played college sports in California. My granddaughter talks about the helmets they have to wear even when in field for softball. My friends like the rules. My brother in Houston thinks it is weenie and his son plays football in school. Opinions vary.

Doctors know more about this than this I do and most tell us to cut out several sports for kids and teens. They know--it is their job and I respect their views on the topic because they deal with facts. Cannot argue facts. But it doesn't mean this isn't another step in the wussification of America because we did these sports for 100 years and now because of chemicals, better nutrition, better weight programs, genetics, etc. our athletes are being bigger and faster. If this is bad then apply it nationally....otherwise we will see another crop moving from cali to texas. Why aren't all states doing this and if the sport is deadly than cut it out or have a national rule to protect all kids.
Sports are dangerous. If the issues are severe than apply them to college as well and pro....oh wait....those are revenue makers. And eliminate boxing as a sport. And no sliding into bases., no mma fighting, etc.
And you know a sport that has the most concussions???? Soccer. They talked about it on world cup shows during off days. Head a soccer ball coming at you at that speed. You are batting a ball with your head.

I understand that these rules are in california and apply to high school and under--not college and up. Protect kids by limiting the amount of contact in non-game situations. The no contact in off season is wussification. We are not talking eliminating the contact in the sport all-together so the issue to get concussion remains--we are just lessening the opportunities. That is the logic nick saban had for eliminating the no-huddle offense. No huddle/hurry up offense gives several more plays per game. More plays per game means more opportunities to get injured. True. But he fails to mention the other vast array of things that would reduce injuries like player size, blitzing (which is not done in pro bowl to reduce injury), etc.
We will see how this pans out in the long run. Coaches are not happy and parents are split. Health wise there are 1001 things that can be done to make every sport safer but reducing contact times in practice and off season is more feel-good than remedy since most concussion will occur in games.

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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #10 
Thank you again fhoenix for such clarity.  That was awesome.

best quote of the post

Quote:
Sports are dangerous. If the issues are severe than apply them to college as well and pro....oh wait....those are revenue makers.


revenue makers for the non-revenue makers, takers

2nd best

Quote:
 reducing contact times in practice and off season is more feel-good than remedy since most concussion will occur in games. 

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #11 
Outlaw the sport. 

OK abortion on demand but ban football, sounds logical. only in Cali.  

[please no rules of not calling California, Cali.  That's only rule if you live there]

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #12 

“In the summer, we do need to have full-contact,”

No, you don't need. Coach may want, but it is not a NEED.

I know you guys think me just a Daddyball coach and a tennis wimp. But, once upon a time, I coached high school football. Even played a few years. Coached it more. 20+ years.

Never had live contact during any summer. None, zilch, nada, zip. We won, a lot, sent kids on to major colleges and a few to the pros. Without the needful summer contact drills. We lifted, we ran, we participated in seven-on-seven passing leagues and tournaments. Full-contact? No.

Just wasn't done. Not in our league, nor the section. Things have changed, but I don't see our local schools with gear on during the summer.

You don't NEED it. Yes, the American concept of More Is Better applies to many things and quite well. Constant contact might better be served with the phrase, Less Is More. And that More might just be Better.


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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #13 
and another good take. this could go on for awhile
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #14 
I respect all views and opinions that come from coaches, doctors, experience, athletes, athlete's parents, etc...I won't agree with them all but I respect the facts and experience that helped form those views.
I don't respect politicians using sports.
Some high school teams practice without hitting in summer...some don't. The difference is it is their choice to do so or not.....not politicians telling them.
Offenses can practice plays without being tackled. Work on executing plays.
Defenses are the ones that miss out most since in games they are the ones doing the tackling and hitting.

Whatever works for each league and coach....but it should be their choice not the politicians. And if it gets too violent stop full contact football and hockey and no headers in soccer and no sliding in diamond sports.
They aren't making it safer--they are just cutting back on physical time and making sure your concussions will be in games not practice. Like a boxer not sparring live. It doesn't make boxing safer it just means his concussions will come from actual fights. And no more dodgeball either.

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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #15 

There was a Forbes article about softball players wearing masks at 1st, 3rd, and pitcher as well as catcher. Kentucky was trying to make it the  rule. I posted it in college softball section.

Here is a part of the article that also applies to this discussion---

"There are year-to-year variances, but what sticks out consistently is that while softball has among the lowest injury rates of nine sports tracked by the RIO system, it has a relatively high proportion of head and neck injuries, in large part because of batted balls. To compare it with baseball, in 2011-12 softball had a greater rate of overall injuries (1.46 per 1,000 “athlete-exposures” for softball, 0.83 for baseball), a greater percentage of head and neck injuries (30.8% to 21.5%), a greater rates of concussions (21.2% to 14.6%), and a greater rate of injuries that occurred while fielding a batted ball (28.5% to 18.9%). As an aside, 35.1% of all softball injuries occurred in the fourth inning, for some unknown reason. These findings are consistent with other studies on softball injuries.

It’s not hard to figure out why the batted-ball injury rate would be so much higher in softball than baseball — the field is smaller. Though the mound was moved back three feet in recent years, it’s still only 43 feet from the pitcher to the plate in high school softball, compared with 60 feet, 6 inches for baseball. The length between bases is much shorter too — 90 feet for baseball, 60 for softball. Any line drive can be dangerous in either sport, but it can be worse in softball because the smaller field gives players less time to react."


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LMUfan

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Reply with quote  #16 
I think we just have semantic difference.  I think we are in agreement but you use the term "wussification" which, I've come to realize, actually means  "logical, common sense moves to protect human life and well being."

So, I can conclude that the following are examples of wussification:

- Seat belts and air bags in cars are the wussification of the American driver.
- Non-drinking and non-smoking is the wussification of the pregnant woman.
- No smoking in restaurants, airplanes and everywhere else is the wussification of the sadist. 
- Face masks on baseball and softball catchers and umpires is the wussification of the sport.
- Stop lights and stop signs at intersections is the wussification of the automobile driver.
- Locks on the doors of the house is the wussificaiton of the home owner. 

There are many more examples but I'm glad we're on the same page now.
fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #17 
Agree or disagree I respect you and thank you for getting me on the sam fisher bandwagon but..................

Nice Strawman fallacy.
My argument was not about safety items or devices that are universally applied to everyone in the entire country...it is about the state of California limiting high school and under kids contact times in football.
I used the term "wussification". That is when you raise kids to be wimpy. Participation trophies for everyone. Fines for teams that run up the score. Schools that make all the kids valedictorians.
Not keeping score in pee wee soccer or football--everyone is a winner and no one lost. 3rd grade Kids getting in trouble for having plastic army men on birthday cake.
Wussification deals with over coddling kids. They already are sitting at home on facebook and twitter and instagram complaining about someone calling them stupid or ugly in text instead of playing outside more. And we keep limiting the outdoor activities because they are not safe and sitting indoors is. Better for a kid to play xbox or wii fitness games for exercise.

Wussification is not about safety and health of kids during the activity...it is limiting their exposure.
If safety of the kids DURING the activity were the issue then modify the equipment and field of play universally in the sport. If something is a safety issue EVERYONE has to abide by it. It wouldn't apply to just 1 state.
Are other states abusive? Negligent? Why now? Did research just come up with this data this year? Why not the other 49 states too? Do they not have doctors on sports safety? Why did it take politicians and not the sports organizations? Why not nationally if it is a valid health concern that is solved by no summer contact and limited contact in practice.
And if it is an actual safety concern then apply it to college kids too. They aren't professionals and are student athletes.
And if the issue is serious then apply it to the sport on all levels including professional.
We are talking rules for kids in California football not National Laws that apply to everyone.

Limiting contact time will reduce injuries. Reduce the number of kids on a team will reduce injuries too since you have fewer people to get hurt. Reduce the time of games would as well. Same as reducing the time people could drive cars would reduce car accidents. But this does not make it safer---it merely reduces the percentages of incidents. That is like a gun control argument that gun incidents would be down with gun control restrictions. Of course they would since less good people would have guns but since bad guys would keep guns you would not be safer. Time limits don't make something safer--equipment, field of play, and in-game contact rules do that. Restrictions just restrict not protect. Otherwise they are part of the sport and apply to everyone in every league and every state.



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BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #18 

Understand your pointed argument about spurious statics, but you are ignoring the attempt to reduce an athlete's total number of hits in a given period. Cumulative head trauma and mini-concussions could be as damaging long term as a single dramatic--and easy to diagnose--concussion.

Not saying that this attempt will do a darn thing, but...that's the aim.

As far as legality, isn't this akin to a common argument in this forum. States rights.

Lastly, can't use the term you used. A wrestling coach in my part of the world did. Cost the entire body of our league's coaches a mandatory session with the Positive Coaches' Alliance folks so we could learn not to call under performing kids Goldfinger's Ms Galore's first name.


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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #19 
I am not ignoring the attempt to reduce total hits. Not agreeing with a specific solution does not mean I am ignoring the health problem. Same in politics. Not agreeing with one solution does not mean you are ignoring the issue or don't care--simply you don't care for their solution as the best one. Someone could cut game length in half and that would reduce number of hits too.
This just seems like a "participation trophy" solution that is limited to high school and under because college football is competitive outside the state and it would be a disadvantage to California colleges. And that means a huge loss of revenue.

I had daughters and granddaughters so I never dealt with having male kids nor coaches saying one of them throws like a girl or is a feline nickname.
But this is how things get banned eventually --like dodgeball and kickball are gone in many schools. There are leagues that require the kids to wear helmets during soccer because of head trauma.
if the data stays similar after a year or 2 or 3 they will have to change something else. If there are more injuries they will have to re-evaluate their "less time = less injuries" is the answer.
And why is it only California?




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BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #20 

I've pointed out before why California is different. We have a melting pot differing than that of the rest of the country. Instead of the welcome arms of the Statue of Liberty, we have...

The dreamers chasing gold.
The chaff that was blown here during the Dust Bowl.
Egotistical Hollywood wannabes.
Those of the populace that can't handle inclement weather.
And so on.

It is the way things are done in California. I'm a motorcycle rider. Recently, the California Highway Patrol's advisory listings related to the practice of Lane Sharing was delineated thanks to a single narrow-minded individual and the lack of spine by our gov't leadership. Long story, won't bore you, but just another in the laundry list of the move to/for a Greater Good.

I'm sure someone could argue, not me...just playing advocate for the devil, that majority of high school students are minors, therefore the State of California is responsible for their safety. Again, not my view, but what is consistent with everything that currently comes down the legislative knee-jerk pipeline.

Agree with you that money will be an issue with any further wussification of American football. Don't know if you can legislate the big boys. Am beginning to understand that what I thought was big business of the NFL and NCAA football is the HUGE MONEY MACHINE of the pair.


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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #21 
Well my daughter agrees with you.
She also think the world begins and ends in los angeles and that UCLA is the center of the universe . It's all good....granddaughter prefers country to city like grandpa.

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BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #22 
"She also think the world begins and ends in los angeles and that UCLA is the center of the universe."

Inspector Clouseau would deduce that LMUfan was your mailman. [idea]

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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #23 
On a related note, Aaron Rodgers no longer considers California his home state
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoenix
There are leagues that require the kids to wear helmets during soccer because of head trauma.
if the data stays similar after a year or 2 or 3 they will have to change something else. If there are more injuries they will have to re-evaluate their "less time = less injuries" is the answer.
And why is it only California?





You really had to ask that?

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
woody

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Reply with quote  #25 
Just cut California off from the rest of the nation. They want to go it alone and be a socialist state, just let them. They will be Venezuela Norte in 5 years or less. Please in advance of their leaving, build a huge barrier to stop them from fleeing what they created.
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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #26 
Woody, that would be entrapment............

Sounds good to me!
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