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RTR

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Reply with quote  #31 



Only video i could find of Joan Joyce, but it I long. More of the interview can be found on YouTuba under "Joan Joyce "

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veteranb

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Reply with quote  #32 
To RTR:
Debbie Doom has never been  6-4 in her life. She was 6-2 and I know because I asked her years ago. I saw her play a teenager in the 1980s and she is one of the players profiled in the book,"Best of the Best:Women's Fast Pitch Softball," by Bill Plummer and Dr. Steven Clarfied. Doom is the only pitcher in college softball history to pitch and win in three NCAA championship games for UCLA (1982, 1984 and 1985). She was 13-4 in NCAA championships and certainly made a major impact on college softball.
veteranb

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Reply with quote  #33 
As someone who has been involved in the game of softball for almost 50 years, the two best women players in history are simply Joan Joyce and Lisa Fernandez. Each dominated in the era they played in and each could play other positions besides pitching and each was a potent threat on offense. Each was simply the best in their era. There is no current player in college close to the abilities of these two players. The word great is used too much in softball, because there are few great players, but in the case of Lisa and Joan great is the only word that accurately describes them.
fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #34 
I have to agree.
They dominated their era as pitchers, batters, and played other positions too.
The complete packages..and then some

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #35 
Amen - and I've been in and about the game for 48 years. Frank
PS - The next tier of superstars isn't a bad list either, but Joan Joyce and Lisa Fernandez, for their respective eras, just stand out by virtue of their performances as "the complete package and then some".

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
outofthezone

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Reply with quote  #36 
First, let me say I agree that Joan and Lisa are in a class all by themselves when it comes to all-around great players!  However, my question is why do you think they struggle as coaches?  I have heard many stories about each from former players and how they didn't like them or didn't get much help from them.  I often wondered why some of the all time greats in other sports were really below average when it came to coaching.  Do you think it's because the game came easier to them or they can't relate to players unable to work as hard as they did to become the best?  This is why I laugh sometimes when I hear on this site, "Suzie Softball Player is a great hire because she was a 3 time All American...blah, blah,blah."  The best coaches are the best communicators and teachers, not always the best former player! 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #37 
Out of the zone - Your question is one that has been asked for as long as I can remember in all sports.  You, perhaps, in the last part of your post have answered your own question.  There is a vast difference between being able to do and being able to teach how to do.  They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but it does seem that many super stars have difficulty coaching (teaching).   Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #38 

My choice for Best Player would be J. Finch
she was great at a period when great players were playing softball.
so your two picks do not match her talent.

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #39 
Hammer - This is not a voting for best human being or best personality or beauty queen.  Certainly Jennie is talented and a fine softball player with great credentials, but we're talking best Softball Player here, and I think she is a wonderful woman and the BEST ICON for the game in history, but just a little short of Joyce and Fernandez as a softball player, and that includes a group of thousands and thousands.  Lots of really outstanding players, but Joyce and Fernandez did it all in more than outstanding fashion.   Frank
PS - I'm glad that you mentioned Jennie Finch because she certainly is worthy of mention as one of the very best. I have met and talked with her and she is absolutely terrific.  Super person !!  Great softball player.  Lovely lady.  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
whocares

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Reply with quote  #40 
outofthezone, Joan Joyce took a brand new program at a Not So Known University. She has had only one losing season in 18 years. She has won her conference ,at least 10 times, maybe more.  It is hard to get some of the best players at Florida Atlantic when you are competing with Fla.St, Florida, South Florida. Recruiting at UCLA is a little easier.  I think Joan has done quite well with the players she has been able to recruit.
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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #41 
Jennie finch was a great player but not the best in history.
The problem with "Best ever" lists is as time goes on people remember those they saw play as best and our society is short term memory so we highlight current and push aside the past.

Jennie finch is a wonderful person, great when you meet her, wonderful to the grandkids when they met her, etc...but that doesn't make her the best. To the grandkids she is because she is the best they ever saw.
Jennie is a Prime example of what I and other said about keeping softball feminine and the sport will not sell itself to casual sports fans or audiences without appeal. Part of jennie finch's stardom was her great looks. She did more for softball by being a star because of her looks than just being good at the sport. She got people to notice. She got guys interested in watching like my navy buddies who didn't want to watch a bunch of butch girls who were either masculine women or feminine men play. Now because she got them watching they still pay attention and follow it. If you had top ratings and filled stadiums and sponsors were lined up you don't care if it was because the 18-35 vieing audience were tuned in to see fit, athletic, cute women play ball. "Come for the pretty athletic girls.... stay for the great sport". All viewers of any sport arent there for sport. There are women that watch footbal and their fav players are just the good looking guys. And yes they pose in underwear ads and other stuff too. Aks david beckham about selling looks.

How good was jennie finch the brand in the market---

n 2002, ESPN called Finch the "runaway winner" of the Best Dressed competition at the Excellence in Sports Performance Yearly Awards.
 In 2003, Finch received the most votes in an ESPN online poll as the most attractive female athlete.
 In 2004, People magazine named Finch one of its "50 Most Beautiful People", the only female athlete in the list.
Not just the only softball player...she was the only female athlete on the list. Since then tennis, swimming. auto racing, and even mma fighting have turned out top 50 best looking females. Think danica patrick being hot hurts nascar? As a few of them said "if it gets more people watching it is good".
 
Finch has modeled swimwear for the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition in 2005.
 
This Week in Baseball signed Finch as a co-host
She also appeared and several sports tv shows as well as several other tv shows. Softball stardom alone wouldnt have done it or others before her or after her would have reached those heights. And good looks alone wouldnt do it since the mystique of being a hot athlete sells. It took both.

She is the most marketbable and successful softball player ever without question.

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veteranb

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Reply with quote  #42 
Jennie Finch attracted a lot of attention during her career and used it to her advantage as well as generating a lot of publicity for softball. She ceretainly was probably the most marketable player of her era and the most recognized. That was to her advantage and in the process it helped increase the visibility of softball. But she isn't the greatest player in USA Softball history based on talent. Fernandez is. To be outstanding as a pitcher, fielder and batter is difficult enough without being outstanding at all three, which Lisa was. She was recently inducted into the USOC Hall of Fame and deserved that honor. She along with the other members of the 2004 USA National Team were inducted.
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #43 
would like to know how many great hitters and pitchers were playing when Lisa was pitching and hitting.
Compare them to the ones Jennie had to pitch to and hit against.
veteranb

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Reply with quote  #44 

Fernandez faced outstanding hitters and players during her career as did Finch, but the results speak for themselves. Time and time again Fernandez was given the ball in the gold medal game and prevailed. Finch didn't get the ball for the 2008 Olympics, Cat Osterman did and unfortunately even with the help of Monica Abbott, the USA couldn't beat Japan in the gold medal game. In her last Olympics Fernandez dominated on the mound and at bat, hitting .545. Finch was an outstanding talent, no doubt, but not the greatest in the history of the USA program. If you look at the total body of work, batting, pitching, etc. Fernandez is clearly the best just as Joan Joyce dominated in her era of softball. In her senior year of college, Lisa led the nation in batting and ERA and UCLA wasn't playing Sisters of the Poor either.

fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #45 
Lisa Fernandez and Jennie finch were both on 2004 olympic team.
Lisa led team usa with .545 batting average, 0.47 era and had 25 strike outs in a game against australia and 52 total with a 0.47 era.
That was the olympics where usa scored 51 and gave up only 1 run to australia in championship game in 6th inning.
In 204 olympics Finch was 24 years old. Fernadez was 33.
6 years older than the next oldest.
Finch retired at 31.

This year the olympic hall of fame inducted the usa 2004 softball  team (as a team) AND Lisa Fernandez (individual honor).
A four-time, first-team All-American, Fernandez led the Bruins to two national championships (1990 & 1992) and two runner-up finishes (1991 & 1993). She was also All-Region and All-Pac-10 first-team each season and Pac-10 Player of the Year her final three years. Finch was awesome as well. She was a three-time, first team all-american and ledd Arizona to one national championship (2001) and one-runner up (2001). She got all-pac 10 but not each year like lisa..

In 2001 ucla went 62-4.
They lost only 4 games-- 3 games in regular season to jennie finch and one-game championship to jennie finch. She was all 4 of their losses that year.

And the who played who arguments don't flush compaing eras.
Both played on one of the top 2 winniest programs in softball history. Bot hplayed in pac10 and had good competion...in fact both their losses in world series championship games were to pac 10 teams. Arizona won pac 10 and lost to UCLA in wcws during a fernandez season.


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‎"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." -- Abraham Lincoln
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #46 
Do you think that Ali would have whipped Joe "The Brown Bomber" Louis?   If you get my drift !!!    Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #47 
Frank, love your " DOUBLE ENTENDRE "
you're GOOD.
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