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Fresh

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Reply with quote  #151 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad
"I don't support" is not the same as denouncing - sounds like you're still dodging the issue.

Fresh also dodged my question about the article he promoted - Seriously, what is the difference between "law and order" and "stronger rule of law and an empowered state behind it"? - because he can't answer it. 

Authoritarianism is in the eye of the beholder.


I will not jump through any more hoops on the subject of antifa and whether I support their use of violence. You'll have to be satisfied with my answer. I will reread the article and report back to you. Haven't disected it to the degree you have. 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #152 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh


I will not jump through any more hoops on the subject of antifa and whether I support their use of violence. You'll have to be satisfied with my answer. I will reread the article and report back to you. Haven't disected it to the degree you have. 


Translation= I'll await the dem talking points before I can formulate my answer

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Fresh

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Reply with quote  #153 
Fresh also dodged my question about the article he promoted - Seriously, what is the difference between "law and order" and "stronger rule of law and an empowered state behind it"? - because he can't answer it. 

Authoritarianism is in the eye of the beholder.


The article states nazis wield power through force. Their intent is to break down societal laws and force a violent reaction. In forcing a violent reaction, they in effect, win. The author is making the point that in nazi Germany, the populace sat back and allowed the nazis to assume power with little fight. The fear of reprisal kept the populace at bay. I'm not sure of your point with the sentences you quoted, but possibly violence is the only viable alternative if the local law enforcement stands by or is undermanned to handle the threat. The nazis thrive in a lawless environment and a stronger "rule of law" is necessary to restrain them. 

Who are you trying to say the authoritarians are? The government, antifa or the nazis? I don't have a good grasp on that last sentence.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #154 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Fresh also dodged my question about the article he promoted - Seriously, what is the difference between "law and order" and "stronger rule of law and an empowered state behind it"? - because he can't answer it. 

Authoritarianism is in the eye of the beholder.


The article states nazis wield power through force. Their intent is to break down societal laws and force a violent reaction. In forcing a violent reaction, they in effect, win. The author is making the point that in nazi Germany, the populace sat back and allowed the nazis to assume power with little fight. The fear of reprisal kept the populace at bay. I'm not sure of your point with the sentences you quoted, but possibly violence is the only viable alternative if the local law enforcement stands by or is undermanned to handle the threat. The nazis thrive in a lawless environment and a stronger "rule of law" is necessary to restrain them. 

Who are you trying to say the authoritarians are? The government, antifa or the nazis? I don't have a good grasp on that last sentence.

The Nazi's were responding to what they felt were injustices.  In their case Germany had lost WWI.  This is mostly due to treaty of Versailles which forced Germans to pay repatriation payments based on their capitulation on the battlefield.

Well some Worker Party Socialists, got together and decided that they were paying too much, that Jews and business owners were not paying enough.  They seized power .  They formed a unit called the Brownshirts that would pile into the street at the first sign of resistance and beat people senseless.  This was all at the direction of elected party officials.

Antifa is literally a mirror image of the most vile of Nazi's, these violent Brownshirt enforcers.  

Never in the history of the world has forming violent fascist political thug movement to counter fascism resulted in anything more than more fascism. 




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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #155 
Fascists are easy to support: 

[HLQ1Z6b] 

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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #156 
Antifa is fascism 


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Fresh

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Reply with quote  #157 
How do you define fascism? I agree their tactics parallel those of fascists, but their political propensity is counter to conservative ideology. Some fascist tenets from The Atlantic: 

Entry of the party into national politics. Intimidation of rivals, and planned acts of “redemptive violence” against suspect minorities and radical rivals.     This certainly applies.

Here's an interesting observation about fascist practices from the same article. Fascism lines become obscure:

The same can be argued about Donald Trump, whose prior political involvements extend not to street-fighting and uniforms, but to playing golf with Bill Clinton. Trump’s critics sometimes invoke fascism in condemning both his demagoguery and his promises to restore lost greatness and dignity. But while appeals to nativism and nostalgia were hallmarks of fascism, they are also perennial hallmarks of liberal-democratic vote-seeking. Sentiment of all kinds is a crucial currency of televised democracy. Barack Obama, for example, delivered his Democratic convention speech in 2008 while standing before Greek columns in a football stadium, promising a delirious crowd not just hope and change, but a vision of a purified world.

PDad

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Reply with quote  #158 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Fresh also dodged my question about the article he promoted - Seriously, what is the difference between "law and order" and "stronger rule of law and an empowered state behind it"? - because he can't answer it. 

Authoritarianism is in the eye of the beholder.


The article states nazis wield power through force. Their intent is to break down societal laws and force a violent reaction. In forcing a violent reaction, they in effect, win. The author is making the point that in nazi Germany, the populace sat back and allowed the nazis to assume power with little fight. The fear of reprisal kept the populace at bay. I'm not sure of your point with the sentences you quoted, but possibly violence is the only viable alternative if the local law enforcement stands by or is undermanned to handle the threat. The nazis thrive in a lawless environment and a stronger "rule of law" is necessary to restrain them. 

Who are you trying to say the authoritarians are? The government, antifa or the nazis? I don't have a good grasp on that last sentence.

I second uwA's rebuttal of your mostly off-topic nazi blurb. 

You either didn't key on the paragraphs of the phrases I quoted or you failed to see an obvious connection. The author characterizes the right's reaction as "law and order" and prescribes the left should respond with stronger rule of law and an empowered state. What's the difference?

The author characterizes "law and order" as authoritarian, yet his prescription is essentially the same. Hence, "authoritarianism is in the eye of the beholder."
PDad

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Reply with quote  #159 
I'm not nitpicking the article - this is its core theme.
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #160 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
How do you define fascism? I agree their tactics parallel those of fascists, but their political propensity is counter to conservative ideology. Some fascist tenets from The Atlantic: 

Entry of the party into national politics. Intimidation of rivals, and planned acts of “redemptive violence” against suspect minorities and radical rivals.     This certainly applies.

Here's an interesting observation about fascist practices from the same article. Fascism lines become obscure:

The same can be argued about Donald Trump, whose prior political involvements extend not to street-fighting and uniforms, but to playing golf with Bill Clinton. Trump’s critics sometimes invoke fascism in condemning both his demagoguery and his promises to restore lost greatness and dignity. But while appeals to nativism and nostalgia were hallmarks of fascism, they are also perennial hallmarks of liberal-democratic vote-seeking. Sentiment of all kinds is a crucial currency of televised democracy. Barack Obama, for example, delivered his Democratic convention speech in 2008 while standing before Greek columns in a football stadium, promising a delirious crowd not just hope and change No hope and "change" was a historically bad economy , but a vision of a purified world by going on an apology tour and entering into an arms deal that will quicken Iran getting a nuclear bomb - the worst President on foreign affairs since Jimmy Carter.



Setting up columns and renting a football stadium do not make you a leader.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #161 
Somebody peacefully walking along, execising their 1st admendment and God given right to free speech.  Armed, masked black block political thugs gang togehter descend upon the unarmed peaceful person and bash him with weapons.  That is f'n fascism dipsh1t.
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Fresh

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Reply with quote  #162 
No, that is assault. Fascism requires a few more criteria. 
PDad

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Reply with quote  #163 
Hey Fresh, did you see this - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/30/pelosi-condemns-violent-actions-of-antifa-protesters/?utm_term=.86d268d98d12

Is that enough or are you going to wait for more Libs to denounce it?
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #164 
I have no idea what you're getting at? I had you as my last hope of providing substantive information from the right. Your bulldog insistence that I denounce antifa in your terms is growing old.
Do agree with uwA's assertion that the peaceful, orderly nazis/white supremacists, merrily sashaying to their meeting point were brutally attacked with no provocation? He makes them sound like a Sunday school picnic. Can any of you agree that they incite violence in hopes they can erode the rule of law and put everything on their violent terms? They are on the wrong side. Antifa is going about it wrong, but I hate nazis and their intent is to run nazis out. I will not denounce every element of their organization. Just the violence and civil disobedience, ie, damaging property and preventing a legally permitted speaker from talking.
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #165 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
I have no idea what you're getting at? I had you as my last hope of providing substantive information from the right. Your bulldog insistence that I denounce antifa in your terms is growing old. Kind of like the media and those on the left did to President Trump?
Do agree with uwA's assertion that the peaceful, orderly nazis/white supremacists, merrily sashaying to their meeting point were brutally attacked with no provocation? You yourself asserted their march and protest a few months before had no such violence.  What was the difference this time?  Could it have been the presence of Antifa?  He makes them sound like a Sunday school picnic. No one thinks they are - an awkward statement at best  Can any of you agree that they incite violence in hopes they can erode the rule of law and put everything on their violent terms?  I agree that both sides do this on a regular basis. They are on the wrong side. No one would disagree.  Antifa is going about it wrong, but I hate nazis and their intent is to run nazis out.  Naive statement at best.  Their intent is to run everyone out, not just Nazi's. I will not denounce every element of their organization.  Exactly what parts of their organization are you ok with? Just the violence and civil disobedience, ie, damaging property and preventing a legally permitted speaker from talking.
mikec

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Reply with quote  #166 
Pretty much sums up Antifa and BLM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Just the violence and civil disobedience, ie, damaging property and preventing a legally permitted speaker from talking.
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #167 
Nothing like anything dealing with Trump. He said as little as possible so as not to lose his WS/nazi supporters.

I have never said they weren't violent. What I said was, I saw no evidence of who struck the first blow that triggered the violence. The WS clearly incited violence and were granted their wish. With no counter protestors, of course there was no violence in the first rally. Don't get your point. I'm glad there were people there to protest the 2nd one.

Antifa does not have any intentions of running everybody out. They are in the business of busting nazi heads and business is good.

I am ok with them opposing nazis. I am ok with them providing a presence that will strike back if violence is started by the nazis. I am against:

Violence and civil disobedience, ie, damaging public and private property and preventing a legally permitted speaker from talking.






uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #168 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
No, that is assault. Fascism requires a few more criteria. 

A crowd of people doing that on a repeated basis, and driven by a political ideology.   Shoe fits, Antifa wears it, they are fascists through and through.

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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #169 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Nothing like anything dealing with Trump. He said as little as possible so as not to lose his WS/nazi supporters.

I have never said they weren't violent. What I said was, I saw no evidence of who struck the first blow that triggered the violence. The WS clearly incited violence and were granted their wish. With no counter protestors, of course there was no violence in the first rally. Don't get your point. I'm glad there were people there to protest the 2nd one.

Antifa does not have any intentions of running everybody out. They are in the business of busting nazi heads and business is good.

I am ok with them opposing nazis. I am ok with them providing a presence that will strike back if violence is started by the nazis. I am against:

Violence and civil disobedience, ie, damaging public and private property and preventing a legally permitted speaker from talking.







Nazi's, KKK and white supremacists are the smallest they have ever been in history. 

Tons of evidence who is initiating violence.  Exclude Charlottesville, where a few despicable, and sad, KKK losers were drawn into a stupid fight, and it still looks like Antifa illegally assembled and assaulted marchers that had a permit.  

Look at what happening is Berkley, Seattle, Boston.  Freedom of speech rallies which are properly organized

Your small Antifa losers better be careful with their wild and random labeling of large swaths of America as Nazi's.  They are going to get themselves hurt.  It is still a Constitutional Republic.  We have laws.  

You think you are ok, as long as you can convince yourself someone else is a Nazi, that aggressive tactics are justified.  That is not how it works.  If a large number of people do not agree with you, you are going to get blownback.  

Keep declaring Trump supporters as Nazi's.  2020 will be a cake walk the way you guys are going now.

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TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #170 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Nothing like anything dealing with Trump. He said as little as possible so as not to lose his WS/nazi supporters.  I admitted it was awkward - so were your first few statements on Antifa - to quote you, "why don't you run if it's so easy"

I have never said they weren't violent. What I said was, I saw no evidence of who struck the first blow that triggered the violence. The WS clearly incited violence and were granted their wish. With no counter protestors, of course there was no violence in the first rally. Don't get your point. I'm glad there were people there to protest the 2nd one.  I didn't agree with what you stated about their intentions.  Merely pointed out if Antifa had not been there protesting what was a legal gathering (albeit a heinous one), there would not have been any violence.  You saying you were glad they were there is akin to advocating the violence that took place.

Antifa does not have any intentions of running everybody out. They are in the business of busting nazi heads and business is good.  Business is good?  I doubt the innocent people caught in the crossfire think so - pretty disgusting thing to say.  Again, advocating violence.  Starting to notice a trend.

I am ok with them opposing nazis  99% of all people oppose Nazi's - most do it legally. I am ok with them providing a presence that will strike back if violence is started by the nazis  What if they directly, or just their presence at a legal demonstration, cause the violence.  Would you actually admit they did?.
I am against:  
Violence and civil disobedience, ie, damaging public and private property and preventing a legally permitted speaker from talking.






uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #171 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
I have no idea what you're getting at? I had you as my last hope of providing substantive information from the right. Your bulldog insistence that I denounce antifa in your terms is growing old.
Do agree with uwA's assertion that the peaceful, orderly nazis/white supremacists, merrily sashaying to their meeting point were brutally attacked with no provocation? He makes them sound like a Sunday school picnic. Can any of you agree that they incite violence in hopes they can erode the rule of law and put everything on their violent terms? They are on the wrong side. Antifa is going about it wrong, but I hate nazis and their intent is to run nazis out. I will not denounce every element of their organization. Just the violence and civil disobedience, ie, damaging property and preventing a legally permitted speaker from talking.

I did not say they were merrily sashaying. They are vile, awful violent losers.  They had a march permit that day.  Most likely they are allowed to go to their park, say their outrageous things, everyone ignores them, they disappear back into the woods from which they came.  If a few leftist want to record them and dox that onliine, that is fine as well. 

The problem is that Antifa is forming barriers for them to march on their approved route.  They altered directions, headed another way, Antifa shifted to block, repeated several times.  Same thing happened in Berkley, Seattle, Boston.  Those were not WS, just Trump supporters.

There are 100s of rallies here in Seattle where they say the most outrageous leftist crazy stuff.  I will go to Left Bank books and take pictures sometime for you.  The most vile leftist celebration of Bolshevism.  Full advocation of leftist violence.  

It would never occur to me to organize a bunch of my friends, dress in black, helmets, sticks and block them from their rally.  That just never happens.   Why is that?

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Fresh

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Reply with quote  #172 
Somebody peacefully walking along, execising their 1st admendment and God given right to free speech

Rest my case.
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #173 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Somebody peacefully walking along, execising their 1st admendment and God given right to free speech

Rest my case.


What the disgusting WS were legally doing in Charlottesville as they had done peacefully before.  And then Antifa showed up.
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #174 
It would never occur to me to organize a bunch of my friends, dress in black, helmets, sticks and block them from their rally.  That just never happens.   Why is that?

Me either, but they don't incense you and me like they do some people. Their movement thinks they have to fight fire with fire. Bring a knife so you won't have to bring a gun later. I don't agree or condone it, but I can see how someone could get very mad with the constant barrage of racial epthets and chants.
Why do you own a gun? Protection. Not that you've ever actually needed a gun. Just makes you more comfortable having one. Would you actually shoot someone for stealing a tv from your house? 
 
PDad

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Reply with quote  #175 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
I have no idea what you're getting at? I had you as my last hope of providing substantive information from the right. Your bulldog insistence that I denounce antifa in your terms is growing old.
Do agree with uwA's assertion that the peaceful, orderly nazis/white supremacists, merrily sashaying to their meeting point were brutally attacked with no provocation? He makes them sound like a Sunday school picnic. Can any of you agree that they incite violence in hopes they can erode the rule of law and put everything on their violent terms? They are on the wrong side. Antifa is going about it wrong, but I hate nazis and their intent is to run nazis out. I will not denounce every element of their organization. Just the violence and civil disobedience, ie, damaging property and preventing a legally permitted speaker from talking.

Was that so hard? That's all I wanted and apparently you couldn't bring yourself to do it until Pelosi did it.

There's plenty of blame for both sides at Cville and I consider it mutual combat. There's also been a lot of conflation about Friday and Saturday.

- I disagree nazis, KKK and WS inherently seek violence at their events - their violence is usually done when no one else is looking. They usually aren't armed at their events because they're under such scrutiny, however they knew antifa was coming for them Saturday and would be armed.

- Friday night's march was a display of ugly nazi beliefs, however they weren't armed nor looking for violence. There was a minor skirmish at the end with some students that tried to block them from reaching their destination.

- Saturday's march looked like a more diverse group than Friday. 
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #176 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
It would never occur to me to organize a bunch of my friends, dress in black, helmets, sticks and block them from their rally.  That just never happens.   Why is that?  The only people that would do that are those looking for a fight - which Antifa was (I am assuming you are describing them).

Me either, but they don't incense you and me like they do some people The incense me greatly - I just have the self control and maturity to not go fight them. Their movement thinks they have to fight fire with fire What we have been trying to tell you. Bring a knife so you won't have to bring a gun later. I don't agree or condone it, but I can see how someone could get very mad with the constant barrage of racial epthets and chants. Don't go listen to them.  There are those that are just as disgusted with Antifa's message, but don't go fight them.  Unlike you, I am glad they don't.
Why do you own a gun? Protection. Not that you've ever actually needed a gun. Just makes you more comfortable having one. Would you actually shoot someone for stealing a tv from your house? 
 
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #177 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh

Me either, but they don't incense you and me like they do some people. Their movement thinks they have to fight fire with fire. Bring a knife so you won't have to bring a gun later. I don't agree or condone it, but I can see how someone could get very mad with the constant barrage of racial epthets and chants.
Why do you own a gun? Protection. Not that you've ever actually needed a gun. Just makes you more comfortable having one. Would you actually shoot someone for stealing a tv from your house? 
 

Fascists have always claimed they had no choice.  That another group incensed them.  For the Socialists that become the Nazi's, the brownshirts they were incensed by the unfair working conditions and over taxation of the german worker.  

They felt violence was their only way to achieve their political goals.  The very definition of fascism. 

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Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #178 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad


There's plenty of blame for both sides at Cville and I consider it mutual combat. 


Teacher slaps high school student for bad behavior.  Father comes to school and punches teacher.  Mutual combat?  Maybe.  Both are violent acts that are unacceptable.  However, the condemnation and discussion should be primarily about the teacher's conduct.  Far worse in this example, not unlike Charlottesville.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #179 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_I_Wynn


Teacher slaps high school student for bad behavior.  Father comes to school and punches teacher.  Mutual combat?  Maybe.  Both are violent acts that are unacceptable.  However, the condemnation and discussion should be primarily about the teacher's conduct.  Far worse in this example, not unlike Charlottesville.

Dewey returns for some moral math lessons.  Makes me comfy.

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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #180 
[PUO6Fbk] 
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