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woody

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Reply with quote  #31 
Humanism does not require the acceptance of God, or God's will. Humanism doesn't follow God's laws that were created for man. Instead Humanism relies on mans laws, and Humanist often object to, and ridicule God's laws. Big difference.
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Note to self, never agree to rewire a huge piece of industrial equipment made by former Axis powers that is older than I am. 

Update, I fixed that sucker. 
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Woody ..........- If "God" equals "good", why is there a problem?


Our Creator is the "only" good.......Humans can't be "good", as we don't have good in us.....Unless, it's a good by the definition of mankind......So, searching for the good in humans to surface and rule the day is not gonna happen....Of course, unless you're going by mankind's definition of good....Laws which are against murdering people after they exist the womb, yet, allow for murdering humans before they exit the womb, is an example of mankind's definition of good....Just an example of why there is a problem, Joisey....

When Jesus talks about "the least of us" in the Bible, His reference is not about rich, poor, priviledged, or, underpriviledged.....This is one of the most misunderstood of Jesus' teachings.....And, it's so misunderstood because of two things, Joisey....First, because of false teaching in churches...Secondly, because of mankind's definitions of words and phrases, even back in the days when Jesus lived on earth....The tendencies of humans to do, and speak, evil is the same as back in the days of our beginning......When Jesus spoke the words, "the least of you", He was referring to His followers.....They were considered to be the least of society, worthy of ridicule, and even death, by the masses.....If churches want to spread Biblical teaching,  they would teach Jesus' gospel for us to look towards helping our neighbors with our money and labors instead of putting those in church buildings and property which will, someday, be destroyed and exist no longer.....
rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Rock - Does not Christianity believe in man's original sin that can only be expunged by the death of God's only son? It is not just said but is stated and is fact.
 Hindus would find the concept humorous. Religion not Christianity. 
Eastern religions, on the other hand, believe in an innate goodness (Buddha Nature) possessed by all persons that exists at birth, and the purpose of a lifetime is for both individuals and societies to find the way (tao)  to magnify the already present good in mankind.  It's an interesting difference in perspective and the purpose of a lifetime. No. Falsehoods as manifested by man. These are Non Believers such as yourself who will not enjoy the wonders of Heaven and will ultimately pay the price for turning your back on God and Jesus who died for our sins.

As for your reason for nationalism, isn't mankind trading one form of insanity for another - given your definition?  Doesn't it suggest that power and not reason is the defining ethic of a nation state?  When will man pride himself on his intellect and not simply being the baddest guy in the valley?  Also, being the baddest guy in the valley by virtue of having the biggest club, does that imply a sense of stewardship for those with smaller muscles and smaller clubs?
Men are inherently evil. You and I and whomever else you want to include. Nationalism is a mere word to try and describe ones affiliation and affinity towards a country. Our leaders try and demand this....example. Obama expects to be Respected, Loved, and Worshipped as the "Leader" of this country. However, according to the definition of Nationalism, a leader or leaders can ultimately caused the reverse effect of its people as Obama as accomplished in his tenure as President. 

Christianity says "Done" in the sense of dogma, interpreted in various ways over the centuries.  The big argument intra Christianity, is between the Church's pathway to heaven and Jesus Christ's pathway to heaven. You state Dogma because you have to find a word to describe the Faith in which Christians have in what Jesus did for our sins on the Cross. The interpretation of Salvation through Christ has been the same since he died for our sins. Man in his infinite wisdom may have tried to skew or reinterpret what Christ did, but the facts remain the same. 

For example, Bluedog eschews religions but is a biblical believer.  I believe that essence returns to a greater essence from whence it came upon the death of the manifestation.  A Christian might suggest that the soul leaves the body and returns to heaven, purgatory, or hell fire punishment.  The key word is "believe" which leaves responsibility to a diety, both positive and negative.  That leaves little to the intellect of the human being. Cool, and basically comfortable !! Interesting in that you again are trying to come up with words to make your own self feel good about your rejection of Christ. He gave us free will and yes you can choose to worship a rabbit if you so choose. But ultimately you will find out you were wrong. For that I feel sorry for you and the choice you have made. As an Academic, I see those of us who are highly educated that reject Christ because they cant see past their own accomplishments.  Its sad.
 

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #34 
Rock - I have not rejected Jesus Christ.  I simply see him in a different light from you, as do thousands and thousands of others.  I see symbols where you see absolutes.  To argue "faith" is to pee into the wind, so I shall not do so.  If your faith sustains you, by all means live by it and remember to be charitable to those who do not agree with your concept of a monotheistic God who sacrifices his only begotten son to pay for the sins of mankind.  I assume that "goodness" is the main theme of all religions except devil worship.  Be good as the values of Christianity would want you to be, and be humble about your beliefs.  To write "it's sad, etc." belies those beliefs and is meant as a poke at one who does not believe exactly as you do.  It is an unnecessary verbal punch six inches below the belt buckle.  That attitude is what unfortunately fires jihad, and I don't think that Jesus would favor that type of thinking.  Man, and not any god, came up with The Crusades and The Inquisition, both "protecting" and projecting their "faith".  

PS - I can see a slight? relationship with this subject matter and racism.   KKK??  Their god refuted Roman Catholics and Jews because they didn't have the same "faith" as Protestants, and blacks because they weren't white. I know of no god of worship who condones hate that I could agree with.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
vol52

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Reply with quote  #35 

"I believe that essence returns to a greater essence from when it came upon the death of the manifestation."

So are you saying that you believe that there is existence past this life as we know it? Or are we all like Rover and when we die we are dead all over?
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woody

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Reply with quote  #36 
JG, so the Children of Abraham that commit Jihad in the name of Islam are on an equal plane with Atheist, Christians, and Buddhist? If Christians proclaimed a Fatwa, and started carpet bombing, not Obama Drone strikes, but real desolation upon our enemies and their families, including the Muslims that were associated with the 9-11 event, would it be just? Just asking which side of the coin Humanist like yourself fall. If the US went over to Saudi and killed 3000 innocent men women and children by Aeriel attack on buildings, in retribution for 9-11, would you think that Jihadist from Saudi were responsible for their deaths, or Americans that were attacked first? Dont give me the eye for an eye, world gone blind response. You know we have the military might to decimate terrorist, their families, their religious leaders, and most importantly, the bankers, and facilitators of terrorism. Would a Humanist such as yourself object to killing a banker, a facilitator of terrorism upon innocent civilians? Would a Humanist object to killing that bankers entire family as well? If not, then you have surrendered to the enemy that will ultimately control, and kill your Grandchildren.
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Note to self, never agree to rewire a huge piece of industrial equipment made by former Axis powers that is older than I am. 

Update, I fixed that sucker. 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #37 
Woody - Lots of premises in your written piece that are accepted only if one agrees with the initial premise.  You are preaching to the choir.  Humanism has a practical and intellectual bent.  Evil must be eliminated before Good can survive.  Within reason, innocents should not be punished for the evil of their culture or families.  Evil in whatever form can only beget evil.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Rock - I have not rejected Jesus Christ.  I simply see him in a different light from you, as do thousands and thousands of others.  I see symbols where you see absolutes.  To argue "faith" is to pee into the wind, so I shall not do so.  If your faith sustains you, by all means live by it and remember to be charitable to those who do not agree with your concept of a monotheistic God who sacrifices his only begotten son to pay for the sins of mankind.  I assume that "goodness" is the main theme of all religions except devil worship.  Be good as the values of Christianity would want you to be, and be humble about your beliefs.  To write "it's sad, etc." belies those beliefs and is meant as a poke at one who does not believe exactly as you do.  It is an unnecessary verbal punch six inches below the belt buckle.  That attitude is what unfortunately fires jihad, and I don't think that Jesus would favor that type of thinking. How would you know exactly what Jesus would believe or not believe since you reject him. As far as my belief that you have or will not get to meet Our Savior because of your Hubris is equally unfortunate. I can say sad or unfortunate. No unnecessary "Jabs". Its a belief of mine that since you turn your back on Jesus Christ you will not experience Heaven and will spend an eternity in Hell. 
PS - I can see a slight? relationship with this subject matter and racism.   KKK??  Their god refuted Roman Catholics and Jews because they didn't have the same "faith" as Protestants, and blacks because they weren't white. I know of no god of worship who condones hate that I could agree with.


Your making a correlation with my statement and the KKK? Curious as to where you pulled that one from? I am quite sure it will come from the depths of some Modern Day Thinker who has also turned his back on Jesus.
As far as Connecting my Faith with Peeing in the Wind. I find this correlation as offensive as a Black man would think being called a certain name offensive.
So we are at an Impasse. I hope you find yourself before its too late. The door is only open for so long.

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vol52

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Reply with quote  #39 
Frank,

Did you see my question in the midst of the long posts?
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Steve Rhodes
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #40 
Rock - To clarify - I said that arguing with someone who bases his truth on "faith" is like peeing against the wind.  He can always reply, "I believe" and that's the end of that.  As for achieving heaven, I believe that anyone who lives a good life (as measured by such as Jesus Christ in his pathway to heaven)  should achieve an afterlife that is a good one, if such exists.  I go so far as to "believe" that my and your essence will return to a central essence, call it what you may, after our manifestation (body) dies and decays.  Various religions treat that concept in different ways, some insisting that the essence lives many lives and in many different manifestations. Others speak of a punitive afterlife based on the degree to which one follows a set of social rules (avoid the seven deadly sins).  Living a life while attempting to be good and do good is a great path, I would say. Doing good works and having a humble and loving heart while embracing the golden rule, I would suggest, is a great start.  That is akin to the Eastern concept of the tao and the innate goodness of mankind. Just as I think that a man without religion is not necessarily a bad man, so too do I think that a man with religion is not necessarily a good man.  The proof in the pudding is the way a man lives his life and the values system he employs while doing that.

PS - I mentioned the KKK as a specific example of "religious" Christians (could be any religion) who claimed to worship their diety while hanging blacks and Jews (bitter fruit)  and hating Roman Catholics.  Simply giving oneself a tag, I think, is not enough to be considered "good", and the reverse is equally true.  Just declaring oneself a Christian, or Muslim, or Jew or Buddhist does not make one a good person.  Living the basic good tenets of each or a good personal set of values does.  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #41 
Steve - I went back and saw your question, and my answer is that I don't know and regard an afterlife as a  "maybe" and an "if".  It is a concept that all religions certainly embrace in one form or another.  It certainly is a carrot to be good, and a reason for hope in a better "world".  To me, being "good" or attempting to be, is its own reward.     Frank
PS - Cogito ergo sum.  To some, life is "end" orientated (dogmatic). To me life is "process".  We can arrive at the same place by different means.  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #42 
Rock - Do not chastise me.  As is appropriate to your faith, pray for me just in case you are absolutely correct.  If not, nothing gained, and if so thank you and I appreciate the vibes.  I am not making light of your beliefs, just touching all the bases in case I'm terribly wrong.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #43 
There are many verses in the Bible concerning riding the proverbial fence.
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If you Don't Love the American Flag You Can Kiss My Country A$$!
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #44 
Joisey, the Bible tells me I don't have the guarantee of eternal life in Heaven, right now......There was a time when Satan, himself, resided in Heaven.....We know the Bible tells us Satan is, as am I, now, a resident of the earth, since He is unfit for Heaven..........We, also, know the Bible tells us that nobody on earth knows the Bible better than does Satan....Satan has committed the unforgiveable sin and His fate is sealed for eternal destruction.....I must endure till the very end for the assurance of eternal life in Heaven.....Until my earthly death, my fate is not sealed, either way....This is Biblical.....

The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus never rejected, or received, the Holy Spirit for most of his life, and his life was changed while he hung dying on the cross.....We know the Bible tells us he will be in Heaven......
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #45 
bluedog - Dismas is a hero to many sinners.  Thank you for the message.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
"And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved"
(Matthew 10:22).
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
bluedog - Dismas is a hero to many sinners.


Joisey, there are no heroes in my world......[smile]


Quote:
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."


Joisey, this is a verse where a comma was added in translation to English which changed the meaning of the verse.....And, is the main reason why most Christians believe they go to the afterlife the day they die, which goes against what the Bible teaches.....
mikec

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Reply with quote  #48 
Eric Holder, who just gave a commencement speech about segregation still running rampant in this country.

When you think about it, if he views the world as black and white, which he evidently does, that explains a whole lot.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #49 
The comma should be after the word "today"....

keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #50 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec
Eric Holder, who just gave a commencement speech about segregation still running rampant in this country.

When you think about it, if he views the world as black and white, which he evidently does, that explains a whole lot.


agreed.

Which commencement? 

Eric Holder and BHO are both future Al Sharpton type race baiters.  They are already spreading their venom, just wait until they are out of office.  For from uniting this country, there now is more division than ever.

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Shut up doofus. Not talking to you. 
 
woody

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Reply with quote  #51 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Woody - Lots of premises in your written piece that are accepted only if one agrees with the initial premise.  You are preaching to the choir.  Humanism has a practical and intellectual bent.  Evil must be eliminated before Good can survive.  Within reason, innocents should not be punished for the evil of their culture or families.  Evil in whatever form can only beget evil.  


Ok JG, here is where we differ intellectually. If an evil person teaches their children, their extended family, and their community to attack and kill innocent people from another tribe, another region, another civilization, another religion, at what point would you as a Humanist, agree that this must be stopped? Would you turn the other cheek if a person, funded by a political nation state, based on a religious principle that denies the faiths of all others, received political and monetary financing, and killed all your children, and all your grandchildren as an act of religious purity? At what point would you seek to establish a direct link to those people, the bankers, the Government agents, the facilitators of that attack, and hunt them down? How many of your loved ones are you willing to offer upon the Humanistic alter, before you would agree that there are some really bad people in the real world, that need to be removed from our society? Should we just succumb to their demands, and be compliant? Or, should we hunt them, their families, their money men, and their families down, and butcher them in front of their peers? Lots of influence to be gained against really bad people, when you butcher their money man's families in front of the money man's eyes. Perhaps other money men would take note. It is assured that the evil doers could care less about anyone, but the people that give the evil doers money, live quite well, and have families that they insulate from this nasty business they profit from. Hunt those people down, kill their families in front of their eyes, and then execute them. Many in the field of financing terrorism would suddenly take note, and desist from their activities. As a dumb Redneck, I'm just sayin, kill the money guys, and ALL their families, one at a time. No need for stealth fighters, drones, 100k troops on the ground. Just pay the right 6 member team enough money, and the financing of terrorism would come to a halt. Target the right people, and Jihad becomes an unthinkable thing. 20 million in the hands of a small group, armed with well known intelligence from any nation state could stop terrorism as we know it in a 3-6 month period. You just have to start at the top, and not the bottom of the pile.

Just sayin.



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Note to self, never agree to rewire a huge piece of industrial equipment made by former Axis powers that is older than I am. 

Update, I fixed that sucker. 
mikec

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Reply with quote  #52 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepinitreal
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec
Eric Holder, who just gave a commencement speech about segregation still running rampant in this country.

When you think about it, if he views the world as black and white, which he evidently does, that explains a whole lot.


agreed.

Which commencement? 

Eric Holder and BHO are both future Al Sharpton type race baiters.  They are already spreading their venom, just wait until they are out of office.  For from uniting this country, there now is more division than ever.


Morgan State or something similar.  HBCU, of course
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #53 
mike - Do you know any caucasian  "race baiters" either in or out of government?  Takes two to tango.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
What do you call an ex KKK leader who shoots Jews in Kansas??  


Didn't you answer your own question in your most recent post?

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #55 
Real - Probably, but I'm old and I forget things.  [rofl]  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #56 
Woody - You and I do not disagree.  It is simply that you approach the human predicament from a "now" perspective, and it certainly is an apt perspective, perhaps even too kind considering the world as we know it.  The Humanist perspective is in terms of process and derives from a base principle that certainly can be denied from our current world view, viewed as a Pollyanna perspective, and that principle is simply that mankind will eventually use his intellect to realize that only mutual understanding and a combined use of intellect will result in a world where mankind will continue to exist and prosper before he destroys himself. The Humanist does not expect immediate results but revels in the many acts of humanity that could possibly become our world's values system and does not give credit nor blame to any deity of ones choice.  It is process orientated and not end perceived, nor defeated as an idea by the horrors of our contemporary world.  Were I not a Humanist, I truly understand that I would read what I just wrote and would reply, "You must be kidding", but then again aren't most collective thoughts based on some type of faith?    [rofl]  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
mikec

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Reply with quote  #57 
Not really, because anyone who is white that does that gets called out, ostracized, labeled a bigot, fired, suspended, or whatever.

Holder and Obama are applauded when they do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
mike - Do you know any caucasian  "race baiters" either in or out of government?  Takes two to tango.  
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #58 
great answer
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mikec

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Reply with quote  #59 

An organization that published a list of 29 “Pitfalls of Working With White People” that was circulated at a diversity conference earlier this year received hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants from the U.S. Department of Justice, the Daily Caller has learned.

Beyond Diversity Resource Center, based in New Jersey, is listed as a partner organization for the White Privilege Conference which was held in Madison, Wisc. in March.

One of the “pitfalls” listed on the Center’s pamphlet, published by the website Progressives Today, is that white people “ask stupid questions”.

The diversity group, which claims that it “works to build a society that honors individuals because of their cultural differences”, wrote on the pamphlet that whites “benefit financially off the backs of people of color.”

White people “are arrogant”, they “say something stupid” and “get too friendly too fast,” the diversity center’s pamphlet claims.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/20/group-that-listed-pitfalls-of-working-with-white-people-received-doj-grants/#ixzz32TwME3W5
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #60 
"White people “are arrogant”, they “say something stupid” and “get too friendly too fast,” the diversity center’s pamphlet claims."

That's always been a problem of mine also, I take after my mentor, Michael Berry

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