Ultimate College Softball
Register Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 4 of 6      Prev   1   2   3   4   5   6   Next
Dusty

Registered:
Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #91 
I recently heard about one of Duke's decommits which got me thinking about how much more difficult it must be for them to grow their program than another startup program like Clemson.  The player didn't have any issues with academics, admissions or the coaching staff other than the fact that they reduced her final financial aid offer to accommodate another player they recruited later on.

Duke's tuition is $50k+ and it doesn't matter where a potential recruit lives.  Most P5 publics are going to be about $35-40k out of state tuition and $15-20k in-state.  Duke gets the same 12 athletic scholarships everyone else gets but the non-athletic money doesn't go as far due to the overall higher expenses (even room & board is about $5k higher than average there).  Add to that they have something close to all their money tied up with players who have four years of athletic eligibility so they probably don't have a lot of money to offer next years recruiting class or the next two subsequent classes unless they let some current players go or some players decide to transfer.  

To use an NFL analogy it seems like they are having to operate as though they have a functionally lower salary cap than other schools and have to franchise tag all of their players for four years.  I don't know enough about the financial side of running a college softball program but was wondering if any budding college softball capologists would have any idea of how one would manage a program in a situation like this?  Who was the last P5 private academic school to start up a softball program?  Stanford?  If so, that was probably too long ago to provide a useful template for Duke.    
3leftturns

Registered:
Posts: 11,558
Reply with quote  #92 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty
I recently heard about one of Duke's decommits which got me thinking about how much more difficult it must be for them to grow their program than another startup program like Clemson.  The player didn't have any issues with academics, admissions or the coaching staff other than the fact that they reduced her final financial aid offer to accommodate another player they recruited later on.

Duke's tuition is $50k+ and it doesn't matter where a potential recruit lives.  Most P5 publics are going to be about $35-40k out of state tuition and $15-20k in-state.  Duke gets the same 12 athletic scholarships everyone else gets but the non-athletic money doesn't go as far due to the overall higher expenses (even room & board is about $5k higher than average there).  Add to that they have something close to all their money tied up with players who have four years of athletic eligibility so they probably don't have a lot of money to offer next years recruiting class or the next two subsequent classes unless they let some current players go or some players decide to transfer.  

To use an NFL analogy it seems like they are having to operate as though they have a functionally lower salary cap than other schools and have to franchise tag all of their players for four years.  I don't know enough about the financial side of running a college softball program but was wondering if any budding college softball capologists would have any idea of how one would manage a program in a situation like this?  Who was the last P5 private academic school to start up a softball program?  Stanford?  If so, that was probably too long ago to provide a useful template for Duke.    
In essence, my POV on how impressive the job is that Coach White has done to have reached the Sweet 16 at a minimum in each of his 8 years, with nearly zilch in-state talent. Every partial scholly is off the $50K a year OOS cost structure.

Duke is definitely in a rarefied boat of difficulty with that admissions office AND no in-state bailout area. At the antipodes in the ACC, FSU is fairly benign in its admissions and is a state school in a state with one of the top half-dozen talent bases. Still, Duke IS in the ACC, with most of the schools having austere admissions. So, that should help

Dusty

Registered:
Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #93 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns

In essence, my POV on how impressive the job is that Coach White has done to have reached the Sweet 16 at a minimum in each of his 8 years, with nearly zilch in-state talent. Every partial scholly is off the $50K a year OOS cost structure.



Yeah, even though Oregon is a public their roster is made up more like a private school.  The big difference though is that Oregon's total cost is about $50k but the OOS tuition is about $33k while Duke's total cost is about $70k and tuition alone is over $50k.  White probably never had to stack all his money with one recruiting class either. 
outofzone

Registered:
Posts: 1,027
Reply with quote  #94 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty
I recently heard about one of Duke's decommits which got me thinking about how much more difficult it must be for them to grow their program than another startup program like Clemson.  The player didn't have any issues with academics, admissions or the coaching staff other than the fact that they reduced her final financial aid offer to accommodate another player they recruited later on.

Duke's tuition is $50k+ and it doesn't matter where a potential recruit lives.  Most P5 publics are going to be about $35-40k out of state tuition and $15-20k in-state.  Duke gets the same 12 athletic scholarships everyone else gets but the non-athletic money doesn't go as far due to the overall higher expenses (even room & board is about $5k higher than average there).  Add to that they have something close to all their money tied up with players who have four years of athletic eligibility so they probably don't have a lot of money to offer next years recruiting class or the next two subsequent classes unless they let some current players go or some players decide to transfer.  

To use an NFL analogy it seems like they are having to operate as though they have a functionally lower salary cap than other schools and have to franchise tag all of their players for four years.  I don't know enough about the financial side of running a college softball program but was wondering if any budding college softball capologists would have any idea of how one would manage a program in a situation like this?  Who was the last P5 private academic school to start up a softball program?  Stanford?  If so, that was probably too long ago to provide a useful template for Duke.    


Be curious to know who the decomitt was & who Duke picked up? PM me if you like
TyCobb

Registered:
Posts: 588
Reply with quote  #95 
What has happened to Georgia Tech these last few years, they where once a top ACC team.  
Sealfinger

Registered:
Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #96 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyCobb
What has happened to Georgia Tech these last few years, they where once a top ACC team.  


Ahh ... the good 'ole days. In a nutshell GT went from two excellent coaches in Earleywine and Perkins to a disaster in Hoerner. It'll take at least a couple of years to return to relevance, much less prominence. But there is reason for optimism in new HC Morales, who played for Earleywine and Perkins and coached under Perkins. Also one can't overlook the simple fact that GT in the glory years had some all-time great players in Yee, Weisman, Lever, Morales, Sallinger, Ashley Thomas, Rudnick, etc. Perkins left Hoerner with some pretty decent players who achieved all conference honors (and some who didn't) e.g., Lionberger, Ziese, P'nunzi but Hoerner never could build off it. Like I said, GT is hoping that happy days will return, sooner than later. But rebuilding ain't easy.
jayrot

Registered:
Posts: 17,108
Reply with quote  #97 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyCobb
What has happened to Georgia Tech these last few years, they where once a top ACC team.  


You gonna pull the dagger out or just leaving it hanging?
jayrot

Registered:
Posts: 17,108
Reply with quote  #98 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sealfinger


Ahh ... the good 'ole days. In a nutshell GT went from two excellent coaches in Earleywine and Perkins to a disaster in Hoerner. It'll take at least a couple of years to return to relevance, much less prominence. But there is reason for optimism in new HC Morales, who played for Earleywine and Perkins and coached under Perkins. Also one can't overlook the simple fact that GT in the glory years had some all-time great players in Yee, Weisman, Lever, Morales, Sallinger, Ashley Thomas, Rudnick, etc. Perkins left Hoerner with some pretty decent players who achieved all conference honors (and some who didn't) e.g., Lionberger, Ziese, P'nunzi but Hoerner never could build off it. Like I said, GT is hoping that happy days will return, sooner than later. But rebuilding ain't easy.


I just want Kate Madden back.  Maybe Aileen can help me fall in love with GT softball again.
Sec_fan91

Registered:
Posts: 2,278
Reply with quote  #99 
Who was that last GT pitcher that was decent? Hope something? I can’t remember
jayrot

Registered:
Posts: 17,108
Reply with quote  #100 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sec_fan91
Who was that last GT pitcher that was decent? Hope something? I can’t remember


Hope Rush
60ftAndHangALeft

Registered:
Posts: 117
Reply with quote  #101 
One must also consider not just the head coach, but the coaching staff(s) as a whole who helped elevate the GT program.  A head coach can't do it alone.  The successful head coaches listed surrounded themselves with great assistants as well.
Sealfinger

Registered:
Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #102 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot


Hope Rush


Hope was not only a terrific pitcher but she was a fearsome power hitter too.
Dusty

Registered:
Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #103 
UVA names new AD

http://www.virginiasports.com/genrel/102217aaa.html
TruDat

Registered:
Posts: 1,087
Reply with quote  #104 
I'd like to comment on scholarships and recruiting. Specifically Duke and also in general. If I were running Duke and had mostly freshmen, I would not have given out the full complement of 12 scholarships. I would have probably held back 3-4 for future classes of kids. In the discussion about In State vs Out of State tuition and recruiting, it can get tricky. All you get is 12 scholarships at most. Be it In State or Out of State. So if you signed all In State Kids, even though the tuition is much less you don't get to use the extra money elsewhere. It is 12 equivalent scholarships only. The only way it matters is if you give an Out of State player a half of a scholarship, the other half is more expensive to them than an In State player who gets a half scholarship. 
outofzone

Registered:
Posts: 1,027
Reply with quote  #105 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruDat
I'd like to comment on scholarships and recruiting. Specifically Duke and also in general. If I were running Duke and had mostly freshmen, I would not have given out the full complement of 12 scholarships. I would have probably held back 3-4 for future classes of kids. In the discussion about In State vs Out of State tuition and recruiting, it can get tricky. All you get is 12 scholarships at most. Be it In State or Out of State. So if you signed all In State Kids, even though the tuition is much less you don't get to use the extra money elsewhere. It is 12 equivalent scholarships only. The only way it matters is if you give an Out of State player a half of a scholarship, the other half is more expensive to them than an In State player who gets a half scholarship. 


Tuition is the same regardless of your status. And what makes you think they used all the scholarship dollars in the first year? or do you mean why didn't they stagger the money so program wasn't fully funded until say 3rd or 4th year?
Dusty

Registered:
Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #106 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Tuition is the same regardless of your status. And what makes you think they used all the scholarship dollars in the first year? or do you mean why didn't they stagger the money so program wasn't fully funded until say 3rd or 4th year?


I believe TruDat was talking Duke specifically in the first half paragraph and in-state vs out-of-state as a separate subject apart from Duke in the second half paragraph.  Not to be the grammar nazi TD, but if that was the case a paragraph break would have been helpful.

I'm sure coach Young would have loved to set some athletic or non-athletic money aside for future classes but for all anyone knows she may have had to commit most or even all of the financial aid she had just to put a team on the field this year.  It's the pink unicorn of rare athletes who has the ball skills, academics and financial resources to go to Duke for softball and pay full freight or even cover most of the bill so my guess would be that she had to use most of her financial ammo to put a team on the field and will figure the rest out as she goes.  Then again, maybe Duke has a lot more academic money to play with then most schools for future classes.  We'll see.   
scfastpitch

Registered:
Posts: 28
Reply with quote  #107 
Does Duke have endowment money available to any student with a family income below a certain level ? I would think they probably do . That would be available to softball players . They can combine athletic money and "need-based" money up to the cost of a full ride . 
And the income level can go pretty high at some schools . Read an article in Baseball America a while back , talking about endowment money used in baseball at places like Vanderbilt , Rice , Stanford , etc. UNC & Virginia were two public schools with lots of endowment money . They only mentioned the income level at Stanford . Basically , any Stanford student with a family income below 120 grand per year was eligible for free tuition .
outofzone

Registered:
Posts: 1,027
Reply with quote  #108 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty


I believe TruDat was talking Duke specifically in the first half paragraph and in-state vs out-of-state as a separate subject apart from Duke in the second half paragraph.  Not to be the grammar nazi TD, but if that was the case a paragraph break would have been helpful.

I'm sure coach Young would have loved to set some athletic or non-athletic money aside for future classes but for all anyone knows she may have had to commit most or even all of the financial aid she had just to put a team on the field this year.  It's the pink unicorn of rare athletes who has the ball skills, academics and financial resources to go to Duke for softball and pay full freight or even cover most of the bill so my guess would be that she had to use most of her financial ammo to put a team on the field and will figure the rest out as she goes.  Then again, maybe Duke has a lot more academic money to play with then most schools for future classes.  We'll see.   


Gotcha, that makes sense thanks Dusty

Duke may have some flexibility as far as money. 3 of their original 2017s were decomitted. 1 of their current 2018s changed her mind within the last 2 weeks and wasn't on campus for their Official Visit this past wkd.  

Good news is this very young team has won their last 3 Fall Scrimmages. They will be .500 for the Fall if they can win against Liberty this Thursday in their final game. 
Still_JAD

Registered:
Posts: 437
Reply with quote  #109 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60ftAndHangALeft
One must also consider not just the head coach, but the coaching staff(s) as a whole who helped elevate the GT program.  A head coach can't do it alone.  The successful head coaches listed surrounded themselves with great assistants as well.


GT has shot themselves in the foot more times than I can count by not taking advantage of in-state talent and the Hope Scholarship.  Lu Harris seems to have learned her lesson and is now concentrating on in-state talent, will Morales do the same?
Still_JAD

Registered:
Posts: 437
Reply with quote  #110 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scfastpitch
Does Duke have endowment money available to any student with a family income below a certain level ? I would think they probably do . That would be available to softball players . They can combine athletic money and "need-based" money up to the cost of a full ride . 
And the income level can go pretty high at some schools . Read an article in Baseball America a while back , talking about endowment money used in baseball at places like Vanderbilt , Rice , Stanford , etc. UNC & Virginia were two public schools with lots of endowment money . They only mentioned the income level at Stanford . Basically , any Stanford student with a family income below 120 grand per year was eligible for free tuition .


It is my understanding that players cannot combine needs based financial aide with athletic scholarships, while academic and athletic money can be combined.  I am not sure if that is an ACC or Duke policy.
scfastpitch

Registered:
Posts: 28
Reply with quote  #111 
Still JAD posted " It is my understanding that players cannot combine needs based financial aide with athletic scholarships, while academic and athletic money can be combined.  I am not sure if that is an ACC or Duke policy. "

Could be . But if several players are getting need-based money only , then there is more athletic money available for other players . I believe Duke can still have 12 on athletic scholarship , even if they have half a dozen (or whatever) getting other types of aid . That's how it works in baseball anyway . Baseball has 11.7 athletic scholarships . I'm told Vandy usually has 20-25 on full ride when you consider all types of funding . And the BA article seemed to confirm that . The article ran several years ago so I doubt if I can find it now but I'll give it a shot . 
scfastpitch

Registered:
Posts: 28
Reply with quote  #112 
Here is the Baseball America article . The first paragraph talks about Stanford's need-based criteria . 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/college/stretching-scholarship-dollars-key-college-success/#LLhVzf46AKPTaGvR.97

The endowment money is a much bigger advantage in baseball , because 11.7 athletic scholarships isn't nearly enough for a full roster . With 12 athletic scholarships softball already has about two-thirds of a roster before they even start looking for other money . The following paragraph from the article was also interesting , especially the first sentence :

According to U.S. News & World Report, as of September 2014, 13 Division I institutions, minus Ivy League members, "claimed to meet 100 percent of demonstrated financial need for full-time, degree-seeking undergraduates in fall 2013." Eleven of those universities are private, and three of them—Vanderbilt, Stanford and Rice—are regular contenders in the college baseball landscape. The two public universities on the list, Virginia and North Carolina, share the status of being giants in the sport.


Still_JAD

Registered:
Posts: 437
Reply with quote  #113 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scfastpitch
Still JAD posted " It is my understanding that players cannot combine needs based financial aide with athletic scholarships, while academic and athletic money can be combined.  I am not sure if that is an ACC or Duke policy. "

Could be . But if several players are getting need-based money only , then there is more athletic money available for other players . I believe Duke can still have 12 on athletic scholarship , even if they have half a dozen (or whatever) getting other types of aid . That's how it works in baseball anyway . Baseball has 11.7 athletic scholarships . I'm told Vandy usually has 20-25 on full ride when you consider all types of funding . And the BA article seemed to confirm that . The article ran several years ago so I doubt if I can find it now but I'll give it a shot . 


I am 90% sure Duke has some players who are either walk-ons or needs based financial aide recipients vs. athletic scholarships.  There is no way they used all 12 scholarships on the inaugural class of freshmen.  It would significantly hinder the growth of the program and any start-up will have low expectations in year 1.  In years 3 and 4 the expectations are much higher.

Now the question becomes, do the walk-ons and financial aide recipients stick around all 4 years if they are not receiving significant playing time.  Playing a college sport "for the love of the game" can lose its luster with 6am workouts 5 days a week when one is playing left bench...
scfastpitch

Registered:
Posts: 28
Reply with quote  #114 
By my count from their on-line roster they have 7 freshmen , 5 redshirt freshmen and 5 transfers . I'm pretty sure I heard on the WatchESPN broadcast that they had a top 10 class coming in . I assumed that was the 2018 class , but I don't know for sure . If so , they obviously have to have some money available for them . They have two grad students on the current roster , so that will possibly free up a little money when they leave , but she will need more than that for a top ten class .  
3leftturns

Registered:
Posts: 11,558
Reply with quote  #115 
I'm sure Duke has between 4.5 and 5.0 scholarships in this crew
BigTenSoftball

Registered:
Posts: 107
Reply with quote  #116 
In most cases, need based money cannot stack on top of athletic money, instead, it counts against athletic money if athletic money is offered.  Otherwise, you'd see a lot more athletes on need based packages. If a kid has a high financial need (low EFC, estimated family contribution), and the school offers a a lot of need based money PLUS they are a high academic kid, then it makes sense for a college coach to package them without athletic money so that the need based money is not counted toward athletic money.

Further, the following is the NCAA's guidelines to determine whether or not an academic merit scholarship would be countable during the student-athlete’s freshman year:

NCAA Bylaw 15.5.3.2.4.1 (Academic Honor Awards -- Based on High School Record): Academic honor awards that are part of an institution’s normal arrangements for academic scholarships, based solely on the recipient’s high school record and awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by institutions, are exempt from an institution’s equivalency computation, provided the recipient was ranked in the upper 10 percent of the high school graduating class or achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.500 (based on a maximum of 4.000) or a minimum ACT sum score of 105 or a minimum SAT score of 1200 (critical reading and math) for SAT tests taken before March 1, 2016; or a minimum SAT score of 1270 (critical reading and math) for tests taken on or after March 1, 2016, based on the concordance determined by the College Board.

lurker123

Registered:
Posts: 180
Reply with quote  #117 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
I'm sure Duke has between 4.5 and 5.0 scholarships in this crew


This is probably close to right. They don't have the full 12 in use right now, and might not until year 4.

Here's some articles where its talked about: http://www.flosoftball.com/article/33293-duke-softball-hires-marissa-young-as-first-head-coach#.We-CbxNSwsk

http://www.ncaa.com/news/softball/article/2015-07-29/duke-hires-former-all-american-young-programs-first-softball-coach


Dusty

Registered:
Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #118 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker123


This is probably close to right. They don't have the full 12 in use right now, and might not until year 4.

Here's some articles where its talked about: http://www.flosoftball.com/article/33293-duke-softball-hires-marissa-young-as-first-head-coach#.We-CbxNSwsk

http://www.ncaa.com/news/softball/article/2015-07-29/duke-hires-former-all-american-young-programs-first-softball-coach




Those articles are dated Aug 2015 right after she was hired.  While I'm sure she knew what she wanted to do then she likely didn't have much of an idea what she could do.  The Flo article says she wanted to get JuCo's in which would have made sense because she could recycle their money in a couple of years when they graduate but that didn't happen.

Those 4.5-5 scholarships for next years class mentioned by 3LT would mean they are currently funded with 7-9 full athletic scholarships, depending on how much of that money becomes available when the grad students depart.  So where does the money come from for the '19 class and beyond?  


3leftturns

Registered:
Posts: 11,558
Reply with quote  #119 
I would guess the two classes on this year's Duke team are getting 4.5-5 schollys... next year's team will have 7 schollys... 2020 will have 10, and then it being fully loaded at 12 from 2021 onward
Dusty

Registered:
Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #120 
Ok, so the 4.5-5 schollys are being spent on the current roster not future years?  Three true freshmen pitchers are probably accounting for the most of it.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.