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TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #151 
Are you simply making up poll numbers again?
Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #152 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
The only slope is in the political reality on the ground.  80% of America resist, more than half strongly so, making abortion criminal for the mother.


As I said, the position to not criminalize abortion is applicable to both Parties. The effort to politicize this issue is detrimental to any and all efforts designed to reduce abortions. Something to think about.

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#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #153 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
  80% of America resist, more than half strongly so, making abortion criminal for the mother. 


What percentage of Americans wanted slavery to be criminalized?
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #154 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator
Are you simply making up poll numbers again?

I have posted it here many many times.  Not going to waste time digging it up again.  Criminalizing females is a line most (80%) do not cross. 

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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

Fresh

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Reply with quote  #155 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
The abortion argument centers around, when does a fetus become a person.
At conception?
After implantation in the uterus? 
After 2 weeks?
After 6 weeks?
After 20 weeks?
Any time prior to delivery?

Who controls a woman's body and any of the decisions, whether well thought out or not, she might want to make on whether she wants to have a child. I defer to the woman.

On one extreme we have religious arguments that birth control is a form of abortion. The possibility of conception was avoided, resulting in whatever person might have been conceived to be interfering with god's will.

On the other side, I guess there are people that would allow abortion up to the moment of child birth. Everybody else falls somewhere in between, consequently resulting in the difficulties in drafting applicable laws.

I would allow the woman to decide for an abortion until the fetus can live outside the mother without extraordinary medical assistance. I put that at about 20 weeks for the sake of the law. You will never convince me that forcing a woman to have a child, only to wrestle it from her hands and give it away is, in any way, fair to the mother. I hold her rights and needs as more important than the rights of a 10 week old mass of cells. 

This will be my last post on the subject, as any discussion of abortion devolves into calling pro choice people baby killers. Dramatic, but inaccurate and in no way going to change minds. Emo.

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The hard right is certainly passionate and emotional about their causes. But in the end, devoid of factual evidence, they are, as President Obama so wisely and succinctly put it, just saying stuff. 
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #156 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist

I have posted it here many many times.  Not going to waste time digging it up again.  Criminalizing females is a line most (80%) do not cross. 


Yes and it's still bogus. You combined several degrees into one final tally for the extreme. It was, as usual, exaggerated.

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The hard right is certainly passionate and emotional about their causes. But in the end, devoid of factual evidence, they are, as President Obama so wisely and succinctly put it, just saying stuff. 
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #157 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
I have posted it here many many times.  Not going to waste time digging it up again.  Criminalizing females is a line most (80%) do not cross. 


Easier just to say yes, I made it up.
Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #158 
Can we agree that most Americans, over 50%, refuse to criminalize abortion?  That includes many on the Right as well.
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#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #159 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator


Easier just to say yes, I made it up.

See "Illegal in all circumstances" 
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

Shown it many times.  You should bookmark it.  You need to understand it if you are proposing any changes to abortion law.  It is a guardrail.  You bump into it, you will be unelectable except in really extremely pro life areas.   

It is also a guardrail for the left.  Only 29% support "Legal under any circumstances"  Again, no limit abortion will only pass in the most liberal of locations.  New York gets it, likely based on New York city controlling New York politics.  Even then it is hard to believe there was enough support for this open of a abortion law. 


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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #160 
Poll was seen and refuted.  You skew the results to your arbitrary line of thinking.

Did I miss the point where poll referenced criminalizing it for the mother?
Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #161 
If you disagree with him, at least tell the readers what percent of Americans you think don't want to criminalize abortion.  Are you suggesting it's less than 50%?  Stop haggling over the exact number.
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#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #162 
Fresh quotes himself where he says it’s his last post on the subject then follows up with another post on the subject.
A special kind of stupid

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EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #163 
Hahahahahaha no sh1t scotty is not bright. And has no integrity evidently.
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RIP Mark Campbell
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Victory USA. OC BatBusters. Pacifica HS 
Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #164 
Many Americans on the Right choose not to criminalize abortion and yet Rightists still try to turn it into a Left/Right issue.  It defies logic.  It's similar to TheNarrator criticizing those on the Left who choose not to support spending money on a wall when he holds the exact same position.  Some people just argue to be arguing.



__________________
#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #165 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator
Poll was seen and refuted.  You skew the results to your arbitrary line of thinking.

Did I miss the point where poll referenced criminalizing it for the mother?

You 2 yutes never disappoint

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RIP Mark Campbell
Truly one of the best there was
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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #166 
Scottymoth to the flame
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Shut up doofus. Not talking to you. 
 
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #167 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator
Poll was seen and refuted.  You skew the results to your arbitrary line of thinking.

Did I miss the point where poll referenced criminalizing it for the mother?

Criminalizing is criminalizing in that poll.   When they ask people do you support making abortion "illegal in all circumstances" people are taking that to be that doctors and mothers are being arrested for abortions. 

That has about 18% support in America, with 82% against that stance.

Not sure how it can be parsed in any other fashion.  It seems straight forward to me.   The numbers have been pretty much locked in since 1972 when the poll was started. 

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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #168 
53% say it should be illegal in most circumstances. I could say that means 53% are for criminalizing it, but that would be an reading something into the poll that wasn’t there.

Bring back some real numbers to back up your case if you want to be taken seriously again.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #169 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator
53% say it should be illegal in most circumstances. I could say that means 53% are for criminalizing it, but that would be an reading something into the poll that wasn’t there.

Bring back some real numbers to back up your case if you want to be taken seriously again.

You parse how you want to parse all you want.

Q: "Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances or illegal in all circumstances?"  

Illegal in all  (18% for, 82% against) --> No abortions ever, not Day 0, not Day 1, no IUDs, no morning after, no procedural abortions.  (Your position)

Legal only under certain (50% for, 50% against) --> Day 0, Day 1, IUDs allowed, morning after allowed, earlier terms procedural abortions allowed. 
Legal under any  -- > (29% for, 71% against) --> Day 0, Day 1, IUDs allowed, morning after allowed earlier terms procedural allowed, late term procedural allowed.  


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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #170 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator
53% say it should be illegal in most circumstances.


Where in the world did you come up with that?  The poll says 82% of Americans are willing to accept abortion be legal.  Of course that doesn't mean always.  For example, I suspect most Americans may be against abortion in the 9th month unless there is a good reason.  In any event, it shows 82% of Americans willing to support abortion as legal.  That means no criminal penalty.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx


__________________
#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #171 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist

You parse how you want to parse all you want.

Q: "Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances or illegal in all circumstances?"  

Illegal in all  (18% for, 82% against) --> No abortions ever, not Day 0, not Day 1, no IUDs, no morning after, no procedural abortions.  (Your position)

Legal only under certain (50% for, 50% against) --> Day 0, Day 1, IUDs allowed, morning after allowed, earlier terms procedural abortions allowed. 
Legal under any  -- > (29% for, 71% against) --> Day 0, Day 1, IUDs allowed, morning after allowed earlier terms procedural allowed, late term procedural allowed.  


Well we now know the dems in NY favor abortion up to birth. They are more upset about stray cats being euthanized than an unborn child

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RIP Mark Campbell
Truly one of the best there was
Victory USA. OC BatBusters. Pacifica HS
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #172 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spazsdad

Well we now know the dems in NY favor abortion up to birth. They are more upset about stray cats being euthanized than an unborn child

Which indeed is horrifying. 

Woody's response on the subject was spot on.  It is easy if you use common sense.

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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #173 
The unwillingness to accept the fact most Americans, of all political persuasions, don't want to criminalize abortion, is detrimental to making gains to reduce abortion.  Denigrating those in this category only makes supporters of legal abortion dig in their heels with tougher protections.  The tactics of those against abortion need to be more considerate if we are to successfully reduce unwanted pregnancies and the abortions that often result.


__________________
#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #174 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist

Which indeed is horrifying. 

Woody's response on the subject was spot on.  It is easy if you use common sense.

They justify with the umbrella of woman’s body and choice with no regard for the child or the father. Then they lecture those that think otherwise. Such hypocrisy

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RIP Mark Campbell
Truly one of the best there was
Victory USA. OC BatBusters. Pacifica HS
Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #175 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_I_Wynn
The unwillingness to accept the fact most Americans, of all political persuasions, don't want to criminalize abortion, is detrimental to making gains to reduce abortion.  Denigrating those in this category only makes supporters of legal abortion dig in their heels with tougher protections.  The tactics of those against abortion need to be more considerate if we are to successfully reduce unwanted pregnancies and the abortions that often result.



There's a choice to be made.  Do you want to win a political argument or do you want to reduce abortions?

__________________
#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #176 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist

You parse how you want to parse all you want.

Q: "Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances or illegal in all circumstances?"  

Illegal in all  (18% for, 82% against) --> No abortions ever, not Day 0, not Day 1, no IUDs, no morning after, no procedural abortions.  (Your position)

Legal only under certain (50% for, 50% against) --> Day 0, Day 1, IUDs allowed, morning after allowed, earlier terms procedural abortions allowed. 
Legal under any  -- > (29% for, 71% against) --> Day 0, Day 1, IUDs allowed, morning after allowed earlier terms procedural allowed, late term procedural allowed.  



You're the one pulling the Cliffy on this one.  It went poorly for you last time, and will again.

18% feel it should be illegal in all circumstances and 50% feel it should be illegal under certain circumstances.  I should have said 58%. When you break down the 50% that are "legal under certain", legal only in a few outpaces legal under most 35-14.  As your own poll shows, more American want a vast portion of abortions to be illegal.

 We all know you like to pontificate as if you are all knowing with these polls and their meanings, but you are reading more into it than is there.  This poll does not prove your 80% don't want it criminalized.  In fact, it shows more of the opposite.

Insult away, because that is something your are actually good at.

uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #177 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator



You're the one pulling the Cliffy on this one.  It went poorly for you last time, and will again.

18% feel it should be illegal in all circumstances and 50% feel it should be illegal under certain circumstances.  I should have said 58%. When you break down the 50% that are "legal under certain", legal only in a few outpaces legal under most 35-14.  As your own poll shows, more American want a vast portion of abortions to be illegal.

 We all know you like to pontificate as if you are all knowing with these polls and their meanings, but you are reading more into it than is there.  This poll does not prove your 80% don't want it criminalized.  In fact, it shows more of the opposite.

Insult away, because that is something your are actually good at.


Agree.  68% believe abortion should be illegal some circumstances.  Actually it is 71%.  

To me it is quite easy to reason with when people are troubled by 'abortion'.   Most troubling in this order (lest to most troubling). 
1) Block insemination
2) Block egg implantation (Day 0, Day 1, Day After Pill, IUD)
3) Early term abortion (first trimester)
4) Mid term abortions (second trimester)
5) Late term abortions 

It is reasonable to assert when you are talking about outlawing 2, you are losing most people.  This is where you get to the 82% do not support "illegal in any circumstances".  

Just the same as it is reasonable to assert as you get to allowing 5 late term abortions, you get into the 71% are against. 

For me it goes back to the very reasoned reply from woody.



__________________
"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

Will_I_Wynn

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Posts: 6,616
Reply with quote  #178 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist

Agree.  68% believe abortion should be illegal some circumstances.  Actually it is 71%.  




Going down this path you can get to 100% for abortion to be illegal.  Suppose on the day of delivery the woman says I don't want this baby and the doctor kills it before delivery.  I think everyone would claim a law had been broken.

The point is most people would support legal abortion with some standards.


__________________
#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #179 
Trying to decipher your post and I do agree that most Americans would agree to making late term abortions illegal.

We should start there and move towards conception.
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #180 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator
Trying to decipher your post and I do agree that most Americans would agree to making late term abortions illegal.

We should start there and move towards conception.

Not in NY. The bastion of democrat liberal elites

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RIP Mark Campbell
Truly one of the best there was
Victory USA. OC BatBusters. Pacifica HS
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