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TheNarrator

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kazoo

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Alert, alert, alert:  A religious crazy has got his anti-abortion freak on.....

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TheNarrator

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Typical, low intellect response.
keepinitreal

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like the freshyturd, kazoo has no answer, just here to argue.  "If it can save even one life".

Funny when someone wants to save a few million lives, it's "a religious crazy".  When a father drags his daughter thousands of miles from his home country and kills her, "we must do what we can if it saves just 1 life".  

Atheist crazies are the worst crazies
 

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Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #5 
Work together to reduce abortions.  Education, contraceptives, morning after pill, etc.  We'll get nowhere on this issue by trashing those who think differently.


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The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #6 
Get Adoption back as the preferred route for unplanned/unwanted babies.
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EarlyGrayce

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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepinitreal
like the freshyturd, kazoo has no answer, just here to argue.  "If it can save even one life".

Funny when someone wants to save a few million lives, it's "a religious crazy".  When a father drags his daughter thousands of miles from his home country and kills her, "we must do what we can if it saves just 1 life".  

Atheist crazies are the worst crazies
 




That is weird, right? Libs work hard to ignore hypocrisy in their views.

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TheNarrator

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They are even shooting at each other - must be the guilt of all the killing.
keepinitreal

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For those that can't speak for themselves, keep defending the murders, shows who you really are


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Fresh

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Reply with quote  #10 
The abortion argument centers around, when does a fetus become a person.
At conception?
After implantation in the uterus? 
After 2 weeks?
After 6 weeks?
After 20 weeks?
Any time prior to delivery?

Who controls a woman's body and any of the decisions, whether well thought out or not, she might want to make on whether she wants to have a child. I defer to the woman.

On one extreme we have religious arguments that birth control is a form of abortion. The possibility of conception was avoided, resulting in whatever person might have been conceived to be interfering with god's will.

On the other side, I guess there are people that would allow abortion up to the moment of child birth. Everybody else falls somewhere in between, consequently resulting in the difficulties in drafting applicable laws.

I would allow the woman to decide for an abortion until the fetus can live outside the mother without extraordinary medical assistance. I put that at about 20 weeks for the sake of the law. You will never convince me that forcing a woman to have a child, only to wrestle it from her hands and give it away is, in any way, fair to the mother. I hold her rights and needs as more important than the rights of a 10 week old mass of cells. 

This will be my last post on the subject, as any discussion of abortion devolves into calling pro choice people baby killers. Dramatic, but inaccurate and in no way going to change minds. Emo.

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The hard right is certainly passionate and emotional about their causes. But in the end, devoid of factual evidence, they are, as President Obama so wisely and succinctly put it, just saying stuff. 
Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #11 
That's true.  Rightists call pro choice people murderers and baby killers and the pro choice people have no choice but to ignore them.  This leads to a lack of cooperation on the issue and a missed opportunity to greatly reduce abortions.


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The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


TheNarrator

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Who controls a woman's body and any of the decisions, whether well thought out or not, she might want to make on whether she wants to have a child. I defer to the woman.


I defer to the child.  What do you think they would choose?

Fresh, why do you think the left has ignored options that have proven to reduce abortions?
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #13 
This definitely goes far beyond the 'religious' argument.  
Where the left gets it 100% wrong is to present this as only a right of the woman.  Ignoring the rights of the fetus is a massive shortcoming in all follow on arguments. 

Certainly medically viable fetuses must have rights.   If a mother has a live baby and mother and baby are killed the killer is charged with 2 deaths.  This magical event that we have politically created where the mothers right to control her own baby trumps the baby's rights is flat immoral.  Not immoral in a religious sense.  But immoral at it's very base, at it's very core. 

Either way.  I find it personally frustrating that both sides ratchet up the rhetoric to the point where viablly reasonable answers the reduce the number of immoral acts are not pursued.  
 
Religious nuts that argue that contraception, rubbers, iuds, the pill should not be taught are flat ignoring the outcome of their short sighted, overly religious zealotry.  

Democratic extremists and lawyers who dismantled our adoption system for their own personal gain should be drawn out and shot.  

I do not see a political will anytime soon to criminalize Roe V Wade.  It is just not going to happen.  i just don't see that 20% growing in this country anytime soon.  The criminalize crowd is just not doing anything to win this battle.





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Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist


Either way.  I find it personally frustrating that both sides ratchet up the rhetoric to the point where viablly reasonable answers the reduce the number of immoral acts are not pursued.  
 



I know pro choice people would like to see an end to labels like "baby killers" and "murderers".  Seems like that must be the first step if we want to make progress.


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#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #15 
Democratic extremists that argue abstinence is not realistic are also wrong.  Abstinence should absolutely be encouraged by all members of society.   

Stupid rules and barriers that are created for nonsense and political reasons should be fully challenged.  For instance the left made a massive push to stop white suburban folks from taking fosters and adopting foster children.  They feel that childs culture will be impacted.  How stupid is that.  That is likely pushing back to that single mom who is stuck with the child, and if she gets pregnant a second time she will likely terminate the pregnancy.  

We should absolutely be pushing for limits on the number of weeks.  Should get as many states as possible to pass a 20 week limit.  Then get that nationally passed as that will not pass in CA, WA, OR.  At the same time get as many states to move to 18 weeks, then 16 weeks.  

Rebuild our adoption stuff.

Rebuild our foster institutions.  

If we give these mother reasonable alternatives they will take them.

If you are not working on these reasonable approaches.  Then you are a part of the problem.

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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

Fresh

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Reply with quote  #16 
At some point a mass of cells becomes a human being. Everyone thinks humans, regardless their age, have rights. 

How many cells are necessary to be called a person?

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The hard right is certainly passionate and emotional about their causes. But in the end, devoid of factual evidence, they are, as President Obama so wisely and succinctly put it, just saying stuff. 
Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #17 
If an individual is willing to move to 16 weeks but is still called a "murderer", why bother?




__________________
#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
At some point a mass of cells becomes a human being. Everyone thinks humans, regardless their age, have rights. 

How many cells are necessary to be called a person?


I would say at conception, but realize that would go nowhere.  Start with when the heart is beating - six weeks.

Great stuff UWA, I would add requiring an ultrasound.  It has shown to reduce abortions.
Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #19 
Would those who support no abortion after 6 weeks be called "murderers" by Rightists?  I think so which means the first step must be an agreement to work together, without the rhetoric, to reduce abortions.  Until we get to that point, any progress is nearly impossible.



__________________
#CheckThePresidency 

The best thing President Trump has done to date is anger Sen McCain into voting thumbs down on the repeal of Obamacare. 


 Trump should be honest with the American people.


EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
Democratic extremists that argue abstinence is not realistic are also wrong.  Abstinence should absolutely be encouraged by all members of society.   

Stupid rules and barriers that are created for nonsense and political reasons should be fully challenged.  For instance the left made a massive push to stop white suburban folks from taking fosters and adopting foster children.  They feel that childs culture will be impacted.  How stupid is that.  That is likely pushing back to that single mom who is stuck with the child, and if she gets pregnant a second time she will likely terminate the pregnancy.  

We should absolutely be pushing for limits on the number of weeks.  Should get as many states as possible to pass a 20 week limit.  Then get that nationally passed as that will not pass in CA, WA, OR.  At the same time get as many states to move to 18 weeks, then 16 weeks.  

Rebuild our adoption stuff.

Rebuild our foster institutions.  

If we give these mother reasonable alternatives they will take them.

If you are not working on these reasonable approaches.  Then you are a part of the problem.



 The Voice of Reason.

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Lost_1

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Reply with quote  #21 
The consequences of the lefts line of thinking. What is the difference between the mother or baby?


https://people.com/crime/pregnant-cheerleader-slain-dumpster-football-player-arrested/


A pregnant Indiana high school cheerleader was found slain in a dumpster — and a football player at her school allegedly confessed he was the unborn child’s father, saying he killed her because it was too late for an abortion.

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“Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage.” Winston S. Churchill


woody

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Reply with quote  #22 
If the left that supports unlimited abortion up until and even during birth doesn’t like being called baby killers, then maybe they should stop killing babies. Truth is a hard cold thing. It isn’t a grey area. You either support some law that allows a mother to kill a child in the womb, or you don’t. If you do support killing babies in the womb, then you support infanticide. There isn’t any way to put in nice terms so that you can sleep well after having made a choice to kill or support the killing of an unborn child. If you want a comparison, what outrage and public outcry would occur if people were to start dismembering puppies while they are being born on you tube so that nobody would have to be inconvenienced by there presence. The left and pro choice people are dead wrong on this argument. There are only a very limited instances of rape or instances of health threat to the mother that could justify such a heinous act of savage barbarism. The left is wrong.
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spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
At some point a mass of cells becomes a human being. Everyone thinks humans, regardless their age, have rights. 

How many cells are necessary to be called a person?

Well if you kill a pregnant mom pre 20 weeks you get charged for a double murder so the inconsistency in the laws is interesting to say the elast

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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #24 
The problem is that, if left alone, that clump of cells is going to happily blossom into a beautiful baby.  

It would certainly be easy to argue that you take the youngest ever born premature baby to survive.  That is 21 weeks.  Beyond that you are clearly treading on the babies rights.

It would also certainly be easy to argue that baby is having thoughts of its own activities and how it needs to develop muscles for it's future. 

Hard to argue that a woman did not know she was pregnant beyond 12 weeks.

Honestly.  I think if both sides set their goals on bending rules, creating options in every maximal way, most of this can be resolved without criminalizing abortion.  Just driving the numbers to zero.

It would take quite a bit of effort on everyone's part.  But it is truly the only moral approach.

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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator


I would say at conception, but realize that would go nowhere.  Start with when the heart is beating - six weeks.

Great stuff UWA, I would add requiring an ultrasound.  It has shown to reduce abortions.


What possibly could be freshy's objection to an ultrasound?  If he wouldn't support an ultrasound then he is straight-up PRO-abortion with as little restrictions as possible.

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mikec

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Reply with quote  #26 
These leftist arguments and protestations of name calling are disingenuous.

If you are pro-life, you are called some sort of religious nut jub whacko.  So, spare me the outrage.

Heck, there are one or two with R next to their name in this very forum that default there sometimes when abortion comes up.

Believing that abortion is killing gets you labeled also, so boo hoo.

Also, personally being pro-life (I think pabar is here as well) also means I'm against doctor-assisted self killing, and against the death penalty.  

Life is life.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #27 
Ultimately our laws will be decided politically on this issue.  I am for doing anything necessary to practically reduce loss of life. 

Given our current constitutional form of government this means working with hard realities on both sides of this issue.

If you think that calling people baby killers accomplishes your goal, bully.

I just choose to focus more efforts on things I believe will truly reduce the senseless loss of life.

As you Life is most definitely Life.

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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

woody

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Reply with quote  #28 
Some people by their own evil actions, have forfeited their right to live by doing the evil sin of murder. A child in the womb has not yet risen to the level of sin necessitating the forfeiture of their life just because the child is the result of the actions of a couple of people hooking up. That is a big difference. How can you differentiate the two? One lays in a womb, a creation of God, innocent until birth, the other made a conscious decision to murder. I cannot equate the two.
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mikec

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Reply with quote  #29 
I haven't called anyone a baby killer, I just cry if they get called that, because it is akin to the stuff that gets hurled your way when you oppose abortion.

It starts with religious freak, and ends up at woman-hater.  Runs the gamut of all the liberal epithets.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #30 
Definitely agree.  Calling anyone that is in favor of that baby in the womb having reasonable rights should never be called a religious zealot.  

It is simple morality.   

Never call anyone baby killer nor religious nuts.

Just put as much energy into getting both sides to realize there are practical easy steps they can take to reduce the need for these immoral acts, without requiring criminalizing abortion.  Why not take these wins when we can get them.

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"Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.   We are born free and we will stay free. "

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