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justadad

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Reply with quote  #151 
FPitch9,

Let me set the record straight.  There was lots of complaining last year when the Firecrackers won the championship with my dd!!  At least this year, it is much more constructive because the discussion is about the pros and cons of Women's Open, 23u and Gold.  Not directed at a great pitcher, Stephanie Brombacher. Last year many of the comments were directed at my dd about trophy hunting, stepping down because she couldn't compete against LMU (UCLA's loss in the regional), and many others.  Lots of great people came to Megan's defense which I am grateful.  In fact, I received a much appreciated apology from some posters. This is a much needed discussion because there are so many issues.  I am glad this is occurring and maybe it deserves its own thread.  I can see validity in many of the conflicting points. 

Sincerely,
Steve Langenfeld

  
LMUfan

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Reply with quote  #152 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justadad
FPitch9,

Let me set the record straight.  There was lots of complaining last year when the Firecrackers won the championship with my dd!!  At least this year, it is much more constructive because the discussion is about the pros and cons of Women's Open, 23u and Gold.  Not directed at a great pitcher, Stephanie Brombacher. Last year many of the comments were directed at my dd about trophy hunting, stepping down because she couldn't compete against LMU (UCLA's loss in the regional), and many others.  Lots of great people came to Megan's defense which I am grateful.  In fact, I received a much appreciated apology from some posters. This is a much needed discussion because there are so many issues.  I am glad this is occurring and maybe it deserves its own thread.  I can see validity in many of the conflicting points. 

Sincerely,
Steve Langenfeld

  


Steve,

I believe we should not change the rules because it takes away choices.  There are many reasons to play gold after a freshman year.  It may be to pay back to the team that helped them get into college.  It may be to finish some unfinished business.  Or it may be because it's comfortable and it's a group of friends they just don't quite want to leave.  For whatever reason they should be allowed to do so.  ASA Nationals should be about the best players competing against each other and it should not be primarily as a college exposure tournament.

As to "she couldn't compete against LMU,"  Didn't she go 1-0 against LMU in the playoffs?
Chapple

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Reply with quote  #153 
WOW lot's of things flying around about this subject.  Glad no one cares about this subject.

First congratulations to Gold Coast Hurricanes, even though I hold a grudge against them for knocking out my DD's KC Peppers in 2003 Gold up in Salem.  

I have straddled the fence on this realizing that there are pluses and minuses to each view.  In a thread similar to this a long time ago, I suggested that ASA establish brackets for JO softball by grades if it was important to not have college players available on 18U Gold.  I learned that one of the driving forces behind having an age defined limit was it was necessary in order to align with ISF age brackets for international play.  Makes sense. 

....AND since these age-based classifications permit players whose birthday happens to fall such that they can play 18U National competition after playing one year of college, IMO they should be allowed.  Why should it be ASA's responsibility to restrict college players?  If players came in from international schools, how would their academic standing be addressed and what proof would be required. 

IMO ASA national competition is just that, a competition of those 18U to play at that national level. Those who wish to play even after a year of college ball, should be allowed to play.  Is 18U Gold nationals a great place for exposure to earn a scholarship?  Absolutely.  Is that the primary purpose of the national championship system?  IMO, no.  It is to create competition at a high level and award a champion. 

It is interesting that there have been many seem to know what drives these young ladies to play ASA and have suggested that these incentives might be "self-centered" or "sinister" in nature.  Unless the person has come out stated it, how can we really know. 

As for Megan Langenfield last year I remember the suggestion that she was strictly a trophy hunter and thought - WOW how can we really think that way. 

I would make two points about that regarding any 1st year college player pursuing ASA 18U Gold. 

First, I really struggle to think that "trophy-hunting" was a sole purpose for any of these ladies.  I suspect that so many of them have a loyalty to the teams that gave them their opportunity and if there is a way to pay back the coach and the team --- I say it's awesome.  The college season is very demanding; so going back to a travel ball team just for a trophy really doesn't make sense to me.  A summer off might actually be better to rest the body. 

Second, if ASA's purpose for national championships is to crown a champion, what is wrong with going for it?  ASA Gold Champion is definitely a tremendous accomplishment.  
Slam

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Reply with quote  #154 

"I learned that one of the driving forces behind having an age defined limit was it was necessary in order to align with ISF age brackets for international play.  Makes sense. "

That makes no sense to me at all. What percentage of girls do you think participate in international play in ISF( less than .00001 % +- or there about. )
ItsAGame

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Reply with quote  #155 

To the ones that think college players of any level should not play 18U, I have one question for you.

What about all the young ladies that have played one year of college ball, no matter what level, that for geographical reasons do not have a "gold" or "elite" team to play on, much less a 23U or womens team? Where does that leave them?

Not everyone lives within walking distance of an elite team. The closest one
to us is at least 3 hrs away.  That means my daughter would not have chose to play this summer due to the travel involved just for practice, not to mention games and tournaments, (especially with $4 gal gas).

She chose instead to play for FUN (perish the thought) with a local group of
players that she grew up with and played high school ball with for 4 years. We played in local ASA tournaments no farther than 1 1/2 hrs from home, no more traveling all over the country to play ball. We all enjoyed the more relaxed atmosphere and less travel time that we have had in the last 9 years, and thoroughly enjoyed the summer a lot more.

But according to you that want college players banned, that would have meant her sitting around this summer instead of keeping her skills up. And as far as "she should have played 23U", if the closest elite team is 3hrs away, I can only guess how far the closest 23U team is. I think there is one in the whole state and it is at least 4 hrs away.

So yes, my daughter is one of the guilty ones for playing after they have played college ball. But she had more FUN this summer than any other.

If you ban college players from playing 18U, even tho they are age eligible, you not only ban the players on the "gold and elite" teams but also the girls that are playing  just for the fun and love of the game.

Fpitch9

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Reply with quote  #156 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudDad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fpitch9
College players have been playing 18U for years. Seems like a lot more complaining this year because a Florida team won. Hmm. I don't recall many complainers last year when the Firecrackers, with a college pitcher, won.

Try this link College Players at Gold Nationals



Thanks for the link. I was only a part time reader of the board back then, but hadn't recalled all the complaints like this year. But I see I was wrong about that.
gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #157 

Quote:
Originally Posted by momcat
I don't know why a college player would want to come back to play with high school kids... if they play and win, people complain that it means nothing, they've just beaten up on a bunch of 14 - 17 year olds.  If they lose, they look even worse, i.e., they can't compete with high school kids. 

They should be playing with their peers if they want to get better, i.e., women's open.  If there was more of a demand for these teams, people would form them and there would be more of them.

Just my opinion, but 18gold is no place for college kids.  Not good for them, not good for the high school kids.



You speaking for everyone? My kid benefited from competing with them (for playing time) and against them at Gold nationals. I think she has more confidence that she can play in college someday after her experience this summer.

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LMUfan

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Reply with quote  #158 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonein2point85

Quote:
Originally Posted by momcat
I don't know why a college player would want to come back to play with high school kids... if they play and win, people complain that it means nothing, they've just beaten up on a bunch of 14 - 17 year olds.  If they lose, they look even worse, i.e., they can't compete with high school kids. 

They should be playing with their peers if they want to get better, i.e., women's open.  If there was more of a demand for these teams, people would form them and there would be more of them.

Just my opinion, but 18gold is no place for college kids.  Not good for them, not good for the high school kids.



You speaking for everyone? My kid benefited from competing with them (for playing time) and against them at Gold nationals. I think she has more confidence that she can play in college someday after her experience this summer.


Excellent point.  My daughter had the same experience.

Also, with regard to playing with peers:  An 18 year old freshman probably has a lot more in common with a 17 year old high school senior than with a 30 year old and her toddler.
Slam

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Reply with quote  #159 

By "most" college players opting to play down in 18U Gold, it causes the 23U / womens teams to be so far apart and scarce for the rest. I agree college freshmen shouldnt have to play on the womens open ASA teams with the "grannies" which is what fastpitch players that have already graduated from college are called. Too many college freshmen staying down in 18U Gold are killing the game. 23U is almost nonexistant with womens open and A following the same path. If college players play with their peers  their isnt as much of a problem. There would be more 23U teams closer to home.

ItsAGame

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Reply with quote  #160 
quote:

"Just my opinion, but 18gold is no place for college kids.  Not good for them, not good for the high school kids."

 

 
How can you say  "not good for the high school kids". The girls my daughter
played with this summer "played up" to her level and felt bad if they didn't.
They found out that they too can play  and make plays that they never thought they could.

I will never forget the first middle school practice after my dd graduated. She had given her old high school helmet to a younger player. The first practice she pulled it out for batting practice and the first words out of the other players were: You got HER helmet!!!

If  your dd is playing gold or whatever level, and has to compete against a college player, it should make her strive to play better and "play up" to  their level.

It's good for the college player because they get to be mentor and friend to the younger ones, and its good for the high school players to find out that they too can play at that level.

Most Gold teams are pretty upfront from the beginning about college players and if you dont want to compete with them, find another team that doesnt allow college players.

But then, you would be on here complaining that she didnt win a "national title" or maybe even qualify for the national tournament.

Be glad that your DD got to play in the Gold National Tournament,win or lose;  there's a lot of girls in this country that would love to be in her cleats, just to have the chance to say "I played in the Gold National Tournament"


Chapple

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Reply with quote  #161 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slam

By "most" college players opting to play down in 18U Gold, it causes the 23U / womens teams to be so far apart and scarce for the rest. I agree college freshmen shouldnt have to play on the womens open ASA teams with the "grannies" which is what fastpitch players that have already graduated from college are called. Too many college freshmen staying down in 18U Gold are killing the game. 23U is almost nonexistant with womens open and A following the same path. If college players play with their peers  their isnt as much of a problem. There would be more 23U teams closer to home.

Freshmen players eligible for 18U are only a small segment of eligible players (one age level out of players who are 19, 20, 21, 22, and 23) to play 23U so I have the think that this isn't a main reason 23U is not catching on.  I think Andy hit the nail on the head that money and time are a big limiter to 23U.  In our area, money and scarcity of players are a big restriction in our area for getting a 23U team started.  Parents are not interested in continuing to pay for travel ball so a prime source of income is lost.  Many young ladies, if not playing in college, give up the sport that they played through high school.  Other priorities significantly reduce the player pool.  Therefore to play other teams requires significant travel costs and time.  IMO those are bigger factors why 23U is not succeeding in most areas, not 18U allowing college players. 

LMUfan

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Reply with quote  #162 
Quote:
Originally Posted by momcat
Sorry, I have to disagree.  Why do coaches bring on college players in the first place?  It's not because they don't have full rosters.  It's to give them an advantage over the other teams so they can win.  The college girls have more experience and have played at a higher level all year than the average travel ball kid, giving them an unfair advantage.  What about the kid who pays her dues all year long, only to sit on the bench at the big show (or told not to come, as was the case on at least one team) because the coach decides to pull up a college kid?  I just don't think it's fair, not for the team member or for the opposing team...just my opinion.  As for the college kid, she may be getting reps, but at a lower level than what she's used to competing at. 




I'm not buying that line at all.  LMU had 7 freshman on the team last year.  Only two saw much playing time.  One of those two played women's open during the summer.  This year they'll have 9 freshman to replace only two seniors.  How many of those 9 freshman will see much playing time?

LMU is not unique.  The reality is that the VAST majority of college freshman have played very little during their freshman year, many if not most see no playing time, and when they go and play with their gold team they're pretty darn rusty.  As some others have noted on this thread they often sit when they get back to their gold team because the players on their gold team are either fresher or just better.

As to paying your dues:  When it comes to winning the Gold championship it's the best 9 that play.  Period.  There should be no credit given for paying dues.  That goes for the college freshman also.  She shouldn't be on the playing field just because she's in college.  She needs to beat out the other gold players.
allday24

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Reply with quote  #163 

Quote:
Originally Posted by momcat
Sorry, I have to disagree.  Why do coaches bring on college players in the first place?  It's not because they don't have full rosters.  It's to give them an advantage over the other teams so they can win.  The college girls have more experience and have played at a higher level all year than the average travel ball kid, giving them an unfair advantage.  What about the kid who pays her dues all year long, only to sit on the bench at the big show (or told not to come, as was the case on at least one team) because the coach decides to pull up a college kid?  I just don't think it's fair, not for the team member or for the opposing team...just my opinion.  As for the college kid, she may be getting reps, but at a lower level than what she's used to competing at. 



If the team didn't use their college players, there is a good chance that they never would have made it to Nationals. Then nobody would play in the big dance.

Playing college players doesn't guarantee wins. Some teams with college players didn't qualify at all. Batbusters went out fairly early.

Pudge

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Reply with quote  #164 

I think you all are seriously dreaming if you believe outlawing college players from Gold will get 23U and Women's Open to be the new "it" leagues for the college player. Everyone keeps focusing in on the freshmen that are playing Gold, and the fact that 23U and Women's may have 6 to 10 teams at nationals.

I could be wrong, but isn't that a GIANT red flag that without Gold the college players will take the summer off? If you haven't forgotten, there are still A LOT of sophomores, juniors, and seniors that could be playing 23U and women's that aren't! Why are we not complaining about them?

The reason, because they aren't taking "entitled" playing time from high school players in Gold who "have paid their dues". Let's be honest here, by the time they reach Gold age, Gold Nationals isn't the recruiting venue like it used to. Check the threads. 16U, and soon to be 14U are the hot spots for players to be seen. Sure, there is always a chance at Gold. But, most coaches I know are at Gold's "babysitting' their verbal commitments. Not, looking for more players.

Remember, not all of these college freshmen are starting, or major roll players for their teams. Brombacher, is a great young pitcher for the Gators/Hurricanes. But, remember, she was the #2, who saw limited pitching time down the stretch for Florida. Playing with the Hurricanes this summer is very good for her, and players like her. The reps are good for them.

These college players aren't playing evey weekend in front of those high school players. Keeping the college freshmen in Golds raises the level of the game. It won't "kill the game". Toss the freshmen out and see where Gold goes. You will have fewer good teams (not great). Gold is already watered down as is. Atleast the college players make some of these "Gold" teams legit.

As with every other change people are trying to do to the college game, STOP! The game is fine. If your DD isn't playing because of a college kid, tough. If you know that is going to happen before Gold nationals, stay home. Save your money, time, and ego. If your DD goes and plays, let her enjoy it, and learn from it. It is valuable experieince.


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TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #165 
Also take note that not all college freshmans are 18U.
Actually many do play 23U

playa

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Reply with quote  #166 

HELLO out there!   Why would you think that if college playas weren't allowed to play 18U Gold we would have lesser/weaker Gold teams?  (Corona Angels Tyson was very strong without college playas) It seems to me everything would just be equal all around since ALL Gold teams would have HS playas & college coaches would now have a gold mine of playas to choose from...and now Women's Majors teams would become much stronger too.

Pudge

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Reply with quote  #167 
Quote:
Originally Posted by playa

HELLO out there!   Why would you think that if college playas weren't allowed to play 18U Gold we would have lesser/weaker Gold teams?  (Corona Angels Tyson was very strong without college playas) It seems to me everything would just be equal all around since ALL Gold teams would have HS playas & college coaches would now have a gold mine of playas to choose from...and now Women's Majors teams would become much stronger too.

First of all you have to look at the teams WITH college players, and ask yourself if all of these players weren't playing would ALL of these teams have the ability to pick up players of EQUAL or better ability to compete at Gold Nationals? I would have to say NO!

As for your women's major comment, if the current crop of sophomores, juniors and seniors aren't filltering into women's majors at a high rate, what makes you think the freshmen would go if they couldn't play Gold? My guess? They would do like the upper classmen and take the summers off.

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playa

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Reply with quote  #168 

Pudge don't be naive, there certainly would be enough strong HS playas for Gold ball.   The college playas couldn't take the summer off with college coaches insisting they play ball...and where would they be forced to go   Women's Majors (merging with 23U) would be their only option & it's a win win for all...Peace!

TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #169 
I don't believe that most college players take the summer off.
Most great college players DO play summer ball, as they want to be in shape and sharp when the college season starts.
Fpitch9

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Reply with quote  #170 
Quote:
Originally Posted by playa

HELLO out there!   Why would you think that if college playas weren't allowed to play 18U Gold we would have lesser/weaker Gold teams?  (Corona Angels Tyson was very strong without college playas) It seems to me everything would just be equal all around since ALL Gold teams would have HS playas & college coaches would now have a gold mine of playas to choose from...and now Women's Majors teams would become much stronger too.



So Aleah Macon was not a college freshman at Washington last year?
Pudge

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Reply with quote  #171 
Quote:
Originally Posted by playa

Pudge don't be naive, there certainly would be enough strong HS playas for Gold ball.   The college playas couldn't take the summer off with college coaches insisting they play ball...and where would they be forced to go   Women's Majors (merging with 23U) would be their only option & it's a win win for all...Peace!

Naive? Ummm, what is happening with the freshmen that aren't eligible to play 18's? It has already been stated that women's and 23U isn't flourishing. So where are they??? AT HOME! With the sophomores, juniors and seniors WHO HAVE NOT TAKEN THE TIME TO BOOST THE PLAYERS MEMBERSHIP IN WOMEN'S OR 23U. And if you eliminate all college players, you will have MORE players at the beach and on the couch.

Oh, and there isn't enough strong H.S. talent to hold Gold to the standard that it is. It isn't even close. California, Texas & Arizona would be able to sustain more than one team. But, the rest of the country! Not a chance!

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FromTheSouth

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Reply with quote  #172 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
I don't believe that most college players take the summer off.
Most great college players DO play summer ball, as they want to be in shape and sharp when the college season starts.


Not every college player (even some great ones) live in an area that is geographically feasible to playing in the summer. 
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #173 

All right FromTheSouth, Most great West Coast college players. 

Pudge

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Reply with quote  #174 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fpitch9
Quote:
Originally Posted by playa

HELLO out there!   Why would you think that if college playas weren't allowed to play 18U Gold we would have lesser/weaker Gold teams?  (Corona Angels Tyson was very strong without college playas) It seems to me everything would just be equal all around since ALL Gold teams would have HS playas & college coaches would now have a gold mine of playas to choose from...and now Women's Majors teams would become much stronger too.



So Aleah Macon was not a college freshman at Washington last year?

Good Catch! I forgot all about Aleah playing for Marty.


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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #175 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
I don't believe that most college players take the summer off.
Most great college players DO play summer ball, as they want to be in shape and sharp when the college season starts.


I don't think they "take off" completely. But, I would bet my house that MOST are not on a summer team.

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LMUfan

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Reply with quote  #176 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
I don't believe that most college players take the summer off.
Most great college players DO play summer ball, as they want to be in shape and sharp when the college season starts.



Let's do the math.  If an average college team has 16 players and there are 1,000 NCAA teams that's 16,000 college players.  Add in NAIA and JuCos we're probably up to around 25,000 college softball players.

If most of them are playing in the summer, where the heck are they playing? 

There are 12 Women's Open teams here in So Cal.  Assume that half of the Women's Open players are college players (the rest have graduated), that accounts for 96 college players.  And this is the hotbed of softball.  Where are the rest?
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #177 

They are playing for the Olympic team

FromTheSouth

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Reply with quote  #178 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
I don't believe that most college players take the summer off.
Most great college players DO play summer ball, as they want to be in shape and sharp when the college season starts.



Let's do the math.  If an average college team has 16 players and there are 1,000 NCAA teams that's 16,000 college players.  Add in NAIA and JuCos we're probably up to around 25,000 college softball players.

If most of them are playing in the summer, where the heck are they playing? 

There are 12 Women's Open teams here in So Cal.  Assume that half of the Women's Open players are college players (the rest have graduated), that accounts for 96 college players.  And this is the hotbed of softball.  Where are the rest?


Some would be in summer school............a good way to lighten the load in the Spring. They also have access to facilities for summer workouts - better than the local YMCA.
Pudge

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Reply with quote  #179 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
I don't believe that most college players take the summer off.
Most great college players DO play summer ball, as they want to be in shape and sharp when the college season starts.



Let's do the math.  If an average college team has 16 players and there are 1,000 NCAA teams that's 16,000 college players.  Add in NAIA and JuCos we're probably up to around 25,000 college softball players.

If most of them are playing in the summer, where the heck are they playing?
 

There are 12 Women's Open teams here in So Cal.  Assume that half of the Women's Open players are college players (the rest have graduated), that accounts for 96 college players.  And this is the hotbed of softball.  Where are the rest?

My point exactly!


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LMUfan

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Reply with quote  #180 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromTheSouth

Some would be in summer school............a good way to lighten the load in the Spring. They also have access to facilities for summer workouts - better than the local YMCA.


Well, at least here in So. Cal., the Women's Open is only on weekends.  Summer school wouldn't interfere with that.  However, there are those that study abroad for the summer.  Do you think they do that every summer?  Or maybe once in their college career?  How many of the 25,000 could that account for?

I believe that most of them take the summer off.  And, I know of a some that just prefer to play slow pitch close to home.  There are plenty of those all around the country.
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